in defence of reconstructionism and more nots on idoletry

[00:03] <obli> did you and otter come to a consensus on pagan vagueness Eugenios

[00:03] <Eugenios> Yes

[00:03] <Tj_inLove> obli: pagan vagueness?

[00:04] <Eugenios> Tj_inLove: A lot of eclectic solitary neopagans basically have a vague path with little specificity

[00:04] <Eugenios> They hate tradition

[00:04] <Eugenios> And don't want to be challenged

[00:04] <Tj_inLove> aah

[00:04] <Tj_inLove> well...as soemone who has a similar prblem i can relate

[00:04] <Eugenios> The consensus we came to is that these people haven't or dont want to learn

[00:04] <Tj_inLove> for me its not so much that i HATE it, but that given modern mindset traditins just dont "gel" wiht me

[00:05] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: aah

[00:05] <obli> hmm

[00:06] <obli> do you think this is less of a problem in the odinist/heathen community than other branches of paganism Eugenios

[00:06] <obli> because from the outside looking in they look alot more organised than other branches

[00:06] <Eugenios> But not every tradition is like Christianity

[00:06] <Eugenios> obli: it's less of a problem in traditional polytheism as a whole

[00:07] <Eugenios> Heathenry, Hellenism, Celtic Recon, Kemetic Polytheism, etc...

[00:07] <obli> so its more of a problem with the "witchcraft" traditions?

[00:07] <Eugenios> You still feel hurt by world religions

[00:08] <Tj_inLove> obli: why so?

[00:08] <Eugenios> Not entirely

[00:08] <Eugenios> It's an issue with the "eclectic solitary neopagan" group

[00:09] <Eugenios> Traditional Witches, initiated Wiccans, Druids, and Hermeticists don't have this problem either

[00:09] <obli> i'm just trying to get a grip on the idea Tj_inLove

[00:09] <Eugenios> ESNs, as I've taken to calling them, have very shallow paths

[00:09] <Eugenios> Very little study

[00:09] <obli> it wassn't a -hard- accusation :P

[00:09] <Eugenios> Very little exploration

[00:10] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: why so?

[00:10] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: or rather...why do you think so

[00:10] <Eugenios> Because they're still hurt and angry from Christianity

[00:10] <Eugenios> They want a path that makes them feel comfortable - even special

[00:11] <obli> do you think these problems would be solved by more numbers Eugenios ? like if every city over 100,000 had a few hundred pagans, and they were organises, signifigantly less of the community would suffer from this?

[00:11] <obli> i mean a better support network

[00:11] <Tj_inLove> nod

[00:11] <obli> or is this inherantly on the individual

[00:11] <Tj_inLove> yea

[00:11] <obli> organsied

[00:12] <Tj_inLove> obli: no..i think it has to do with the fact taht a lot of these people are more "anti christian pagan" rather than "just plain pagan" if that maeks sense

[00:12] <Eugenios> obli: Time... we just need time

[00:12] <Eugenios> Our community is getting out of its adolescence

[00:12] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: and less christian influenece

[00:12] <Eugenios> Yes

[00:13] <obli> it's amazing how easy i found it to kill all christian influence in the end...

[00:13] <obli> humanist influence on the other hand

[00:13] <obli> not that i think theres anything wrong with humanism

[00:13] <obli> or its incompadible at all

[00:14] <obli> but maybe i'm wrong

[00:14] <Tj_inLove> obli: theres a lot of stuff thats VERY deep that ppl dont even realise

[00:14] <obli> sin seems the hardest for most people to reject

[00:15] <obli> and (in recent history esspecially) the aplocylpce

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> i also include the loose aristotelean influence that christian culture brought with it

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> hmm

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> obli: the idea of good vs evil

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> obli: monotheism

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> all things ive found ppl to be basically NEVER letting go of

[00:16] <obli> well Aristotle was a pagan too :P

[00:16] <Tj_inLove> lol yea true

[00:16] <Tj_inLove> no i mean some of his philosohical thoughts that went down to aquinas etc

[00:17] <obli> i think monotheism is the easiest to jettison for people who have begun following -any- pagan path

[00:17] <Tj_inLove> idea of a seperate soul

[00:17] <Tj_inLove> dualism is INSANELY ingrained in our culture (c.f. "freaky friday")

[00:17] <obli> since its at the centre of christian claims

[00:17] <obli> yeah TJ_inlove

[00:17] <Tj_inLove> obli: ull be surprised

[00:18] <Tj_inLove> obli: the immediate effects of monotheism are easy to jettison yes, but there are deeper aspects of it that people carry over the pagansim

[00:18] <obli> i think within paganism there are disagreements over what to replace dualism with

[00:18] <Tj_inLove> at least imio

[00:18] <Tj_inLove> *imo

[00:18] <obli> in that alot replace it with a unity

[00:19] <obli> where i think there is incipient in hard polytheism a pluralism

[00:19] * Tj_inLove narrows hi eyes at obli

[00:19] <Tj_inLove> *his

[00:19] <Tj_inLove> obli: apparently i have never met any pagans then

[00:20] <obli> um... you may not have met any hard polytheists

[00:20] <obli> ;P

[00:20] <Tj_inLove> no..ive not met anyone who is a pagan pantheist

[00:20] <obli> hmm

[00:20] <Tj_inLove> aside from myself, wulfbyrnan and ADeline

[00:20] <obli> i see them alot in the litterature

[00:21] <Tj_inLove> you do?

[00:21] <obli> esspecially out of llywyelleian and that kind of thing

[00:21] <Tj_inLove> i think the word you are looking for is henotheism

[00:21] <Tj_inLove> ?

[00:21] <obli> for pagans who beleive in a unity?

[00:22] <Tj_inLove> for one, the common stereotype of dualism (is that the word?) is basically completely contrary to pantheism

[00:22] <obli> yeah

[00:23] <obli> basicly... i see alot of pantheists... and alot of people who place all gods under a creator (wicca does something similar with the god and goddess archetypes)

[00:23] <obli> in the literature

[00:23] <Eugenios> Most Pagans are some form of soft polytheist or pantheist

[00:23] <Tj_inLove> obli: yea exactly...thats not really pantheism, id classify that more as henotheism

[00:23] <Eugenios> henotheism

[00:24] <Eugenios> another term for soft polytheism

[00:24] <Tj_inLove> yeaxactly

[00:24] <obli> theres nothing inherantly wrong with either approach... they don't make you -not pagan-

[00:25] <Tj_inLove> polytheism but  one god is superiour

[00:25] <Tj_inLove> no ofc not

[00:25] <Tj_inLove> im just a stickler for correct terminology

[00:25] <Tj_inLove> :)

[00:25] <obli> but they are fundamentally different from each other and from hard polytheism

[00:25] <obli> and all 3 can legitimately exist and claim decent from the same tradition

[00:27] <Tj_inLove> nod

[00:27] <Tj_inLove> you can very easily "logically" jump from one to the other

[00:27] <obli> i think alot of the problem... is that (by necessity) the average contemporary paganthinks more about spirituality than the average ancient pagan needed to

[00:28] <Tj_inLove> to me they say the same thing..just differently

[00:29] <Tj_inLove> hm

[00:29] <obli> in that -outside of the philosophers- how would it come up that so in so is a pantheist inside a robust civic framework

[00:29] <Tj_inLove> obli: for mthe problem has always been reconciling my modern understanding of the world with traditions that were meant for a different mind

[00:31] <obli> i guess this is where reconstructionists have an edge ... if you can hammer orthopraxy then these distinctions disappear

[00:32] <Tj_inLove> hm

[00:32] <Tj_inLove> well, i still havent made my peace with khemetic rituals :(

[00:32] <Eugenios> Why?

[00:33] <obli> are you addressing tj Eugenios ?

[00:34] <Eugenios> Yes

[00:34] == ChanServ changed the topic of #paganjourney to: A safe place to discuss the ways of paganism in friendship. All are welcome. Please be respectful of each other and of all paths. The ops have the final say on what is appropriate. Please hold idle chat if a serious topic is introduced. Ground Rules: http://channels.dal.net/paganjourney/      

[00:34] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: likke i said...they dont make sense to me...hmmhard to explain. I have to find meaning in what i do...a REASON  etc...

[00:37] <obli> i wonder how i'd fit in with a hellenic or roman reconstructionist group :P

[00:38] <Eugenios> You might do alright

[00:38] <Tj_inLove> also...smthg about khemetic recon ive seen so far around hte internet maeks me blah

[00:39] <Eugenios> The one area of contention in Hellenic and Roman Polytheism is magic and mysticism. There are several Hellenic mystics, like myself, but magic is generally something you keep private

[00:39] <Eugenios> Compelling deities to do your bidding is consider hubris

[00:39] <Tj_inLove> thats what magic is?

[00:39] <Tj_inLove> the word "compelling" does seem a bit hubris-like yea

[00:40] <obli> hard you read the greek magic papyri Eugenios?

[00:40] <obli> have

[00:40] == ogrom [~ogrom@gprs-inet-183-177.elisa.ee] has joined #paganjourney

[00:41] <Eugenios> Yes

[00:41] <Eugenios> The PGM is Hellenistic - late Roman

[00:41] <Eugenios> There is a blurry connection between Greek Mysticism and Hermeticism

[00:41] <Eugenios> Theurgy is more like a deepening of divine relationships

[00:41] <obli> yeah

[00:42] <Eugenios> Magic, as we commonly understand it, is hubris

[00:42] <obli> but yeah compelling a group of reconstructionists to do magic is pretty counter reconstructionist

[00:42] <Eugenios> Folk Magic even, is generally discouraged. In Greek Religion, you should trust your faith, and work on actions more than expecting charms to fix your problems

[00:43] <Eugenios> In my experience, prayer is far more effective - by A LOT

[00:43] <Eugenios> I've had very mystical experiences with prayer - and results that I cannot explain

[00:43] <obli> i'm more interested in the spiritual forces at play in magic than casting a working get rich spell

[00:45] <Eugenios> I don't think magic is wrong - just a different technique

[00:45] <Eugenios> I'm a seer

[00:45] == ChanServ changed the topic of #paganjourney to: A safe place to discuss the ways of paganism in friendship. All are welcome. Please be respectful of each other and of all paths. The ops have the final say on what is appropriate. Please hold idle chat if a serious topic is introduced. Ground Rules: http://channels.dal.net/paganjourney/      

[00:46] <obli> the PGM are a complicated set of documents

[00:46] <obli> but theres some deeply interesting stuff in there

[00:46] == ogrom has changed nick to Guest28798

[00:46] <obli> by their nature -unless you are a witch or magician- they're going to be something thats up to the individual to pick and choose from though

[00:47] <obli> like... primarily a witch or magician

[00:47] <obli> before other things

[00:47] <Eugenios> To me, magical or mystical paths are "side" paths

[00:47] <Eugenios> Alongside religion

[00:48] <obli> well i'm at least as much an artist as a pagan... and the question of where the artist fits in paganism is very obscure

[00:49] <Eugenios> Sure

[00:49] <obli> especially since the last 5 century's (untill the 60's) artists have basicly been the champions of what paganism has existed

[00:49] <obli> to my eyes

[00:52] <obli> but in ancient paganism its entirely possible alot of them were slaves (or little better) with very little in the way of freedom to choose what they were doing

[00:52] <Eugenios> True

[00:52] <Tj_inLove> -_-

[00:54] <obli> but i think the idol -in its construction- contains its own religious authority... thats tied to the artists ability to convey the sublime

[00:54] <obli> so even back then.. its not so cut and dried

[00:54] <obli> skilled execution makes the preist of the slave :P

[00:54] <Tj_inLove> woops wrong window

[00:54] <obli> heh

[00:55] <obli> do idols play a part in your practice Eugenios ?

[00:57] <Eugenios> As sacred symbols, sure

[01:00] <obli> i kind of see them as a point to consider deity from.... you look at them and consider how they are alike and how they differ from the deity they represent

[01:00] <obli> though i'm not hardline on that interpretation

[01:01] <Eugenios> There are some ideas like that in Ancient Greece

[01:02] <Eugenios> Aphrodite's statues were often washed and dressed in her temples

[01:02] <Eugenios> It was definitely the case in Babylon and Canaan

[01:02] <Eugenios> With their deities

[01:03] <obli> an idol is an interesting object.... it can be used in alot of ways... in some regards its a medium... in some is shares similarities with a shaman (maybe?)