paganism, postmodernism and how it might function in the mainstream
<@Otter> hello
<obli> hey otter
<@Otter> how goes?
<obli> in like
<obli> 5 chats at once
<obli> all of them retarded
<obli> :P
<@Otter> lol
<obli> so otter
<obli> we never really got into it
<@Otter> ?
<obli> but what did you think of that baptists view that paganism was well suited for the postmodern situation
<obli> or a "postmodern religion" as he put it
<@Otter> well, it works for me
<obli> frankly
<obli> i think the postmodern situation is more hospidible to religion in general
<obli> though there was alot of occult beleifs underlying modernism
<obli> from the spiritualists and theosophicalists
* Otter nods
<@Otter> i think generalizations tend to be, well, very general
<@Otter> the modern era had many currents
<@Otter> as does our own
<@Otter> i think currently there is a very strong distrust of religion in general
<@Otter> and if anything, that may be growing
<@Otter> but it's not so much a distrust of spirituality
<@Otter> as of religious hierarchy
<obli> i dunno
<obli> i think its been benificial for religion
<obli> that its been a while since any hevens gate/solar temple/supreme truth incidents
<obli> things may be worse for mainstream insitutional churches
<obli> but things are i think the best they've been for new religious movements since jonestown
<@Otter> and then you have the cathlolic pedopriest scandals
<@Otter> i agree
<@Otter> when i joined obod, non-pagans i happened to mention it to would ask, with great concern, "is it a cult?"
<obli> heh
<@Otter> they weren't worried i'd go to hell
<@Otter> they were worried my mind would be controlled
<obli> heh
<obli> whats the alternitive
<@Otter> paganism is extremely decentralized, hence less threatening
<obli> misery or active malignance wholely participating in consumer society :P
<obli> yeah
<@Otter> to what, mind control?
<@Otter> freedom
<obli> there havn't been many accusations of being a -cult- in the pajoritve sence leveled against neo-pagan movements
<obli> i'm skeptical such a thing exists
<@Otter> you don't listen to many baptist sermons, do you ;-)
<obli> :P
<@Otter> i think there have been many, but they haven't been taken very seriously since the collapse of the great satanic panic
<obli> we are controlled by mercantile intrests
<obli> even then otter
<obli> there was still alot of hangover from the 70s
<@Otter> hangover?
<obli> hari krishnas and the various christian demogouges were largely what were labled cults
<obli> very few books on cults include any pagan movements
<obli> from the 70's 80's or 90's
<obli> or current
<obli> :P
<@Otter> i don't think i've read a single book on cults
<obli> i've read alot
<obli> sorry
<obli> i'm feeling pretty diffuse atm
<@Otter> in the US, it's fairly common for a certain type of christian preacher to speak out against paganism
<@Otter> however, i'm not even sure how seriously their own congregations take this
<obli> dissipated
<@Otter> certainily they have very lilttle traction in the mainstream
<obli> i question how relevent the paganism which they denounce is to neo-paganism
<obli> frankly
<@Otter> define the paganism they denounce and neo-paganism?
<obli> i wish the term neopaganism covered all contemparay paganism :P
<obli> i mean
<obli> contemparay paganism as practiced by pagans\
<@Otter> it covers nearly all of it depending on context
<@Otter> if you're talking bonewit's paleo/meso/neo
<@Otter> nearly all pagan groups around today are at least partly neo
<obli> i question the relevance of his cataggories to the kinds of conversations we typically have here
<obli> as in
<@Otter> however, "neopagan" is a popular pejorative with the more authetntic than thou recons, and with nonpagans who wish to emphasize their belief that modern paganism has no historical roots
<obli> they are typically used as signs of legitiamacy
<obli> when i see them in the wilds
<obli> :P
<@Otter> i don't often see bonewit's categories used
<@Otter> i don't think that's what most people usually mean when they say "neopagan"
<obli> i kind of question
<obli> well
<obli> i question esspcially
<obli> mesopagan
<obli> is gardner included under the mesopagan rubic
<@Otter> no, gardner represents the begining of neo
<obli> what about the "new forest coven"
<obli> heh
<obli> this is why i need to go back to just reading primary sources :P
<@Otter> not that he was necessarily first
== TheWolf [TheWolf@cpc26-dudl10-2-0-cust132.16-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #paganjourney
<@Otter> hallo, TheWolf
<TheWolf> hey Otter
<@Otter> i don't know, obli, introduce me to a member of that coven, or show me some of their writing, and i'll give you an opinion
<obli> heh
<obli> would the order of woodcraft chivalry be mesopagan?
<@Otter> possibly
<@Otter> when did that get started again?
<obli> 1917
<@Otter> that makes it sound likle early neo to me, but it may be worth considering things other than timing
<@Otter> meso is generally romantic, meaning that it relies greatly on imagination and greco-roman forms
<obli> what would crowleys kermeticism be
<@Otter> it didn't have the benefit of modern scholarship and archaeology
<@Otter> hmmm
<@Otter> i don't usually think of crowley as pagan
<obli> the aeon of horus, hymn to pan... he stood behind those things
* Otter nods
<@Otter> you could make an argument for it
<obli> i guess its a question of if you can be considered a pagan by beleif
<obli> rather than continual practice
<@Otter> one thing is that i use "pagan" to mean native european
<@Otter> so once you make it to egypt, it's notn as clearly pagan
<@Otter> in my own thinking
<obli> or if an act of practice that you stand behind
<obli> i guess
<obli> as in
<obli> i can see that
<obli> the question i guess is if bonewits sees it like nthat
<obli> :P
<obli> heh
<@Otter> more similar to
<@Otter> yes, i think that one could be defined as pagan by basic cosmology
<@Otter> people don't fully abandon a spiritual tradtion just because they quit practicing regularly
<obli> is the term paganism coming towards the end of its useful life
<obli> with the rise of reconsructionism
<@Otter> if it still influences their thinking about teh world, they're still pagan (or christian, buddhist, hindu, zoroastrian, etc)
<obli> which really only became a big thing
<obli> in the 90s
<@Otter> i think that mesopaganism was reconstructionist
<@Otter> it's just that they didn't have much to build with
<obli> isn't theosophy considered mesopagan
<@Otter> the remains of the ancestral traditions were still largely hidden
<@Otter> hmmm, are they?
<obli> i thought they were
<@Otter> i just woke up, not making many connections with theosohpy one way or another atm
<obli> Examples of Mesopagan belief systems would include Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, Spiritualism, etc., as well as those forms of Druidism influenced by those movements - witchpedia
<obli> whoops
<obli> i mean
<obli> neopagannet
* Otter nods
<@Otter> i think you can quibble about where to draw the lines between pagan and non-pagan occult practice
<@Otter> but all of those were part of a general occult movement that prepared the way for the revival that started in the early 1900s
<@Otter> to me, the term "pagan" is still relevant
<obli> neopagan net basicly
<obli> puts neopagans are new agers
<@Otter> however, i think perhaps we've in a post-neopagan revival now
<@Otter> with the rise of a stronger sort of reconstructionism, and a return to hard polytheism
<obli> Examples of Neopaganism would include the Church of All Worlds, most heterodox Wiccan traditions, Druidism as practiced by Ár nDraíocht Féin and the Henge of Keltria, some Norse Paganism, and some modern forms of Buddhism whose members refer to themselves as “Buddheo-Pagans.” Neopagan belief systems are not racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. There are hundreds of thousands of Neopagans living and worshiping their deities today. As “Neo-Paganism,” this term was popula
<@Otter> we're in
<@Otter> hmmm
<@Otter> some are homophobic, though that's not the mainstream
<obli> i think i'll just stick to classical polytheist untill it stops working :P
<@Otter> some are strongl sexist
<@Otter> for example, Dianic Wicca
<@Otter> lol
<@Otter> i think it's really not so important which wave of the revival you're on
<@Otter> as what sort of paganism you actually practice
<@Otter> there hard/soft dichotomy seems valid and relevant to me
<@Otter> recon.... well, all but the fluffiest bunnies are at least somwhat reconstructionist
<@Otter> the newer the movmeent, the less non-historical cruft they're likely to have
<obli> pretty mcuh
<@Otter> but that's just becuase they have the benefit of what has been turned up since the earlier movments began. in some cases becasuse those movements existed
<obli> yeah
<@Otter> the poeple claiming greatest authenticity have the least actaul practice behind their reconstruction
<@Otter> while the the least historical traditions have anywhere from 1-300 years
<obli> this is why the primaricy of the gods makes things less complicated... in my mind... if someone says they worship Diana then theres no issue with them taking part in a ritual involving her (all else being equal).... doesn't really matter if they are ecclectic or reconstructionist
<@Otter> at what point do you start to consider that part of our history?
<obli> i think it requires a thorough understanding of the entire history of paganism to be able to decide that :P
<@Otter> i really woudln't have a problem with anyone participating in a ritual, whether they communed with the gods we planned to invite or not
<@Otter> it's one of the best way to meet gods
<obli> yeah
<@Otter> unfortunately, the entire of history of paganism is substantially different than the entirety of paganism through the last two or three millenia
<obli> well
<obli> i mean from the last 3 or so millenia
<obli> since
<obli> i put such a primaricy on writing + the areas i'm looking in :P
<obli> and of course part of that
<obli> is the fact i'm a long arse way from any historic ritual sites
<obli> or continuity of practice
<obli> where it exists
<obli> in the peripheries
<@Otter> what's written down isn't very trustworthy
<@Otter> even the modern stuff is full of spin, misunderstanding, and oughtright lies
<@Otter> so paganism will remain somewhat enigmatic, and i suppose that's okay
* Otter nods
<@Otter> it woudl be fascinating to spend some time in the UK participating in local seasonal festivals
<obli> depends otter
<@Otter> but i'd have to wonder how much of what i was seeing was influenced by modern trends
<@Otter> what depends and what does it depend on?
<obli> i think the iguvine tablets for example are trustworthy
<obli> most of the orphic writings are trustworthy as being representative of at least authentic -strands- of orphism
<obli> part of the problem
<@Otter> quite possibly
== Alkkleen [~Judgment@173.209.212.153] has joined #paganjourney
<@Otter> welcome Alkkleen
<obli> is theres like
<obli> maybe 15 people who come through here
<Alkkleen> <-----gotach btw
<obli> and we all want diffrent things from our practice
<@Otter> ah
<@Otter> thanks
<obli> if there were like... 150 maybe we could find likeminded practicioners
<@Otter> what's with the new nick?
<obli> hi Alkkleen
<Alkkleen> Hi obli n Otter
<Alkkleen> For me it would be close to like minded
<Tj_inLove> Otter: grocery store...free delivery...WHY HAVE I NOT BEEN DOING THIS!!
<Alkkleen> Rofl Tj_inLove
<@Otter> lol
<@Otter> hi Tj
<Alkkleen> Rofpmfslol
<@Otter> likeminded is a difficult term. how like minded :-)
<@Otter> ?
<obli> i just want contact with the gods.... living the lifestyle of the ancients isn't an end unto itself for me :P
* Otter nods
<@Otter> same here
<@Otter> and as i see it, the ancients were innovators
<@Otter> the tradition constnantly evolved through their adaptations to the needs of the time
<@Otter> so slavishly repeating old forms actually seems quite inauthetic to me
<Alkkleen> Even the greatest live the same way Otter
<@Otter> at least for the Gaelic tradition
<@Otter> saw what, Alkkleen?
<obli> the romans on the otherhand were pretty reconstructionist themselves
<Alkkleen> Im talkin bout the oldest of the eldest deities
<obli> on a civic level anyway
<obli> things are complicated :P
<obli> heh
<Alkkleen> Ok im confused now
<Alkkleen> Did the topic switch around
<obli> but there was a relevance to this stuff to our immediate ancestors as well ... it was just expressed subconsiously
<Alkkleen> ah humans
<obli> through art and archietcture
<Alkkleen> My bad
<Alkkleen> The japanese have always been ahead of the current time
<Alkkleen> Plus theyve always been stylish
<@Otter> i'm not sure what you're talking about, Gotach. the topic started with whether or not the baptist lecturer we've been discussing off and on lately was correct that paganism is well suited for the post modern era
<Alkkleen> Look at their art
<Alkkleen> Sry bit blazed atm
<Tj_inLove> hello all
<obli> no worries Alkkleen
<obli> i'm not on my a-game either
<Alkkleen> Hi Tj_inLove
<Alkkleen> Some of the philosophy is good
<@Otter> then obli said he wished "neopagan" referred to all current pagan paths, and we got onto Bonewits and the varios pagan revivals, reconsstructionism, etc
<Alkkleen> Pagan used to be referrin to the country backwoods people in britannia
<Alkkleen> Er england
<@Otter> elohim as in raelians, Alkkleen?
<Alkkleen> Elohime as is starseeds
<Alkkleen> One thing i like bout irc vs inweb chats is no lag
<Alkkleen> Or less lag
<Alkkleen> But ya my mind is on much more than history n energy use
<Alkkleen> Or magick
<Alkkleen> As its mostly termed
<Alkkleen> Bit more philisophical
<@Otter> so going back to the baptist, i think his point about paganism being practical in these times is accurate
<obli> yeah
<Alkkleen> Ive gotten farther with myself though
<obli> if more people accepted their paganism they'd be more self aware of what they are dedicating themselves to
<obli> just spitballin
<Alkkleen> Otter: i would say its more usefull than christianity
<@Otter> it's decentralized, and there's a general movement toward decentralization. i think technology is a major force behind that
<@Otter> what we're seeing is the erosion of old, strongly centralized systems because that centralization is no longer necessary
<obli> the empires of the future will be empires of the mind - fat man with hat
<Alkkleen> Christianity is more bout makin yourself look good for apearence sake where with paganism you are betterin everythin around you as well as yourself
<obli> i don't really see spirituality and morallity being intertwined... the gods are important becuase they hold power over us, being the kind of creatures we are, but that doesn't make them moral
<obli> more awesome and terrorfying
<@Otter> things like ebay, P2P file sharing, and the rise of the internet as a news source are all part of this
<@Otter> depends on the christian, Alkkleen
<@Otter> and on the pagan
<Alkkleen> honestly i would be happy with bein able to manifest my energy
<@Otter> i think you can find genuine and superficial people in both camps
<Alkkleen> Wouldnt really use electronics that much
<Alkkleen> Correct obli
<Alkkleen> The only difference from the deities n mortals are the stress of responciblity n power they have
<Alkkleen> Especialy ultimate eldest deities or the ultimate forces
<@Otter> hmmm
<Alkkleen> They hold the most power so they get the most blame for when things hit the fan
<@Otter> my gods are powerful, but i don't think it's accurate to say they have power over me
<@Otter> i wouldn't want to fight one, lol, but they seem to have no interest in controlling me
<Alkkleen> They only have power like that Otter if you give it
<obli> you have to be devoted to something
<@Otter> exactly
<Alkkleen> Even the gift of respect gives them power
<Alkkleen> Not reallu obli
<Alkkleen> Er really
<obli> unless you are totally dedicated to another person.. entirely selflessly... its a god of some sort
<obli> or
<obli> an array of gods
<obli> in almost all cases
<@Otter> as for morality, they are wise, and from that wisdom arises right action, which is the essence of morality
<@Otter> i am devoted to my journey
<@Otter> and to my role in the universe
<obli> thats sort of a question of true will isn't it otter?
<Alkkleen> Why did grampa hershal have to die
<@Otter> what is the question?
<Alkkleen> Why, he was loved n liked by all
<obli> 'the nature of true will
<obli> i mean
<Alkkleen> True will means you are able to make your own choices
<obli> in the ideal "perfected" form i get the impression it's imagined as being generated entirely in the self
<@Otter> hmmm
<@Otter> ah, will generated in the self?
<obli> yeah
<Alkkleen> obli: there is no such thing as prefect. Just the presute of it
<@Otter> yes. soul's will. the will of your larger, deeper self
<obli> i assume someone who was in tune with their true will would be a superman
<obli> were it possible
<@Otter> which of course is connected to everything
<obli> which i am skeptical it is
<@Otter> you think souls are isolated?
<Alkkleen> obli: im so close it scares me
<@Otter> presute, Alkkleen?
<Alkkleen> The deeper you go into your own soul the more you understand who you are instead of what you are
<obli> i mean i'm skeptical its possible to be in tune with your true will if true world is idealised as something generated entirely inside the self
<Alkkleen> Otter: the journey to it
<obli> not shaped by the forces at play in the universe
<Alkkleen> The chase for it
<Alkkleen> To seek it ouy
<Alkkleen> Er out
<@Otter> true world generated entirely inside self?
<@Otter> sounds like catatonia
<Alkkleen> Otter: i actualy understand what he means
<Alkkleen> Lol
<Alkkleen> Dead on understand
<obli> true will
<Alkkleen> One of my breakthroughs is what he is talkin about
<obli> true world is alot scraier
<obli> :P
<@Otter> i think true will arises from true self
<@Otter> but not in isolation
<Alkkleen> Both of you are correct
<Alkkleen> When you fully understand your own soul inside n out. You will see it is interconnected with all
<obli> true will is the disolving of the barrier between a persona principals and properties ~ some shit i wrote last week
<obli> persons
<obli> not persona
<obli> heh
<@Otter> we are always connected, and ultimately, the boundaries of "self" are merely conceptual
<Alkkleen> Ah
<Alkkleen> Exactly Otter
<Alkkleen> But think of it like this. Since wherever you are is touchin the planet through energy n you to whatever it is through energy
<Alkkleen> You are actualy connected to me via the same way
<obli> maybe i see the idealised true will as entirely self generated due to the fact true will it's self is kind of a reductionist concept
<obli> about overcoming outside influences
<Alkkleen> Even with some distant star millions of lightyears away
<@Otter> so what do you think, Obli. will paganism go mainstream?
<@Otter> do we want it to?
<Alkkleen> Otter: i say let it choose its own course instead of influencin it
<obli> i want it to
<obli> i am an art student :P
<obli> will it?
<obli> that depends upon hard work
<obli> creating beautiful things
<obli> good fruit
<obli> and coherent explinations
<@Otter> if the baptist is right, then what happened with Wicca after "the craft" and "charmed" came out was just the first of many waves of clueless newbies
<Alkkleen> Not even curnnunos nor gaia can force it to change
<obli> :P
<obli> hopefully otter
<Alkkleen> Otter: thats when you take it upon yourself to properly teach the young ones
<Alkkleen> The ones who are new to things
<obli> at this point
<obli> its hard to form a coherent core
<obli> becuase we have so few people
<obli> and so many ideas
<obli> so philosophical discussion is the most productive way to occupy ourselves
<Alkkleen> Thats the funny thing
<Alkkleen> If they dont learn properly n safely
<Alkkleen> They learn the hard n dangerous way
<Alkkleen> Kind of like me
<Alkkleen> Lol
<Alkkleen> But i knew what i was doin mostly
<Alkkleen> But i forgot bout the enviornment a bit
<@Otter> Wicca more or less drowned, and even now the influenced of commercialism and flat out ignorance on Wicca remains profound
<Alkkleen> There are still those whom have learned properly Otter
<obli> well
<@Otter> what will the other pagan paths, and paganism in general, once most people have become pagan
<@Otter> ?
<obli> wicca had a one two punch upon birth
<obli> first the murry thesis
<Alkkleen> but ya some of the places have been have enviornmental influences on me
<obli> then the massive drug use and moral relitivism of the 60 and 70s
<obli> concepts like truth and tradition and authenticity became devalued
<Alkkleen> N i need to get some help with that
<Alkkleen> Ive contacted a group that may be able to help
<Alkkleen> Give me a contact at least
<Alkkleen> Purple sage paranormal investigation
<@Otter> do you see a more coherent mass adption of paganism in the future, Obli?
<obli> i think it depends upon capital otter
<@Otter> that's the problem, Alkkleen. not everyone is interested in learning
<obli> in that
<@Otter> capital?
<obli> historic civic paganism (in city states esspecally) relied upon prominent citizens creating and financing public festivities
<obli> maybe not
<obli> -depends-
<obli> but
<obli> capital would help provide a coherance
<obli> that is currently lacking
<@Otter> so, the best strategy is to educate the rich before they sponsor a festival dedicated to Sailor Moon?
<obli> yeah
<obli> can you write fiction otter?
<@Otter> i have
<obli> things like that have an importance
<obli> lovecraft was a pretty big influence on me
<obli> for example
<@Otter> what i'd like to write is awlays a bit beyond my skill level, though, so i tend not to finish anything
<@Otter> a strong cohort of bards would definitley help
<obli> and both in his early writing and in the writing of the people who inspired him the influence of classical paganism (which permiated society as a legacy of the rennissance and enlightenment) is pretty clear
<@Otter> but count on hollywood to do their best to co-opt it
<obli> i don't think hollywood is neccicarrilly an enemy
<obli> argueably
<obli> not an enemy at all
<obli> look at how the christians hostility to hollywood has hurt them
<@Otter> it's not a friend, either
<obli> thats why the very few biblically based movies that get release are always such a win big/lose big gamble
* Otter nods
<obli> its not a friend of accuracy
<@Otter> that's not so much about hollywood as about the place of christianity in modern society
<@Otter> people don't trust it anymore
<Alkkleen> obli: the main point is to convert with christian based movies
<Alkkleen> Thats why
<obli> its a friend of excitement and getting people excited about things... they just arn't great at it atm due to the massive bloat blockbusters have undergone
<@Otter> perhaps what's happened is that evangelism has become counter productive
<obli> like
<obli> theres a new hercules coming out
<obli> with the rock as hercules
<obli> might be ok... might be terrible
<obli> hard to tell from the trailers
<obli> but even if it stinks out loud
<obli> i don't think its going to do any hard
<@Otter> i doubt it will be deeply spiritual, but i'd love to be surprised
<Alkkleen> Otter: christianity now is talked about n rarely acted upon n when it is its to look good for the public
<obli> infintessimally small ammounts compared to say.. wicca :P
<obli> harm
<obli> well Hercules isn't really a deeply spiritual character
<@Otter> where does the vampire thing fit into all this?
<obli> he's a prehistoric superman
<obli> he barely has his own motivations really :P
<obli> the vampire thing?
<obli> :O
<@Otter> wicca caught a major break when people looking for spiritual identity started saying they were vampires and donors
<@Otter> the popularity of the modern vampire mythos has diverted a lot of fluff that would otherwise have probalby gone to wicca and perhaps other pagan paths
<@Otter> thinking about what the baptist said about people seeking a new sort of spirituality
<@Otter> and how pganism was a good fit
<@Otter> i wonder, where do the wannabe vampires fit into that?
<@Otter> he used that madonna video to illustrate the trend in society, though it's not pagan and he didn't say it was
<@Otter> the video may be closer vampire wannabe occultism than it is to paganism
<obli> maybe
<obli> i dunno what to think about them
<obli> they are loose units
<obli> we just have to hope
<obli> they are loose units like levay and not crowley and we arn't actually losing anyone productive :P
<@Otter> lol
<@Otter> eventually, the vampire thign won't be cool anymore
<@Otter> and it will be something else
<obli> frankensteins
<obli> cosmetic neck bolt surgery
<obli> elctroshock parties
<@Otter> wicca was at least a spiritual tradition
<obli> yeah
<obli> i see vampireism
<@Otter> but it's pretty weak in tradition
<obli> as more of an offshoot of goth
<obli> and
<@Otter> okay, how does goth relate to wicca?
<obli> vampire the masqurade
<obli> goth relates to punk
<obli> its a asthetic thing mainly
<obli> in my understanding
<obli> vampire the masqurade was a roleplaying game
<@Otter> astherics for identity
<@Otter> punk is about identity too
<obli> that popularised live action roleplaying
<obli> the problem is
<obli> i've never met a vampire
<@Otter> lol
<@Otter> you mean a real one?
<obli> and i don't think i could take them seriously if i did
<obli> i put them in the box with otherkin and that
<@Otter> i find it interesting that when people identify as vampires they are declaring weakness
<obli> i mean a person who considers themself a vampire
<@Otter> i'm not really sure what to make of that as a trend
* Otter thinks
<Alkkleen> An actual true full vampire is not weak
<@Otter> i've met plenty online
<obli> i think its like steampunk
<@Otter> i dno't recall anyone telling me that in person, though
<obli> almost entirely asthetic
<Alkkleen> Not someone who is online
<Alkkleen> Besides a true vamp wont give him or herself away
<obli> vampire is to goth as steampunk is to cyberpunk
<Alkkleen> Unless he or she trusts you
<@Otter> yeah, okay
<Alkkleen> Rofpmfslol
<obli> heh
<obli> who was that dircted at otter
<obli> :P
<obli> the smart answer is
<obli> both of us
<Alkkleen> Whole difference is obli with that the vamp goths are better lookin tjan the steampunks
<obli> otter
<obli> do you think the chronicals of narinia have turned anyone toward christianity
<@Otter> last line was for obli
<@Otter> i have no response on the nature of actual true vampires
<Alkkleen> Because none have been seen in several hundred years
<@Otter> man, i don't know
<@Otter> i've never had anyone say that they read narnia and became christian
<obli> heh
<@Otter> but they'd be saying that to other christians
<@Otter> i haven't read the books either
<obli> i watched the bbc show
<obli> and read the books
<@Otter> so i'm not really sure how strong the christian element is
<obli> didn't realise they were christian
<obli> pretty strong
<obli> overpoweringly strong
<obli> they come off as very antiseptic and anti human
<obli> or lacking in humanity
<obli> and the last one is downright hateful
<@Otter> okay
<@Otter> well, i'd probably have been disappointed in them as novels, then
<@Otter> wow
<obli> this is my impression as a child
<@Otter> why are they so popular then?
<obli> before i knew they were christian
<obli> they have some imagination
<obli> i think its their anti humaness
<obli> that gives them a kind fo alieness
<@Otter> i recall one of my HS classmates telling me how great they were
<@Otter> he was reading at the time, though. pehraps he changed his mind somehere in the last book
<obli> that makes them more fantastical than their more... accomadating... compedators
<obli> well i read them all
<obli> they have something to them
<Alkkleen> The authur was christian is why
<@Otter> ah, so thinly veiled christianity makes great escapism?
<obli> a weird distance
<obli> the forth one has dionysus in it :P
<obli> though i missed that refrence too
<obli> but there anti-humaness was only really cemented for me
<obli> as something not just in my head
<obli> a few years back
<Alkkleen> Funny thing is the hobbit n lord of the rings has the christian thing because christians placed it there
<obli> when i read william morris's the well at the worlds end
<obli> where lewis cribbed alot of his style from
<obli> though morris was better at it
<obli> and more pro-life
<obli> pro-joy
<@Otter> what is christian about TLOTR?
<obli> pro-thinly vailed lesbianism
<@Otter> it's got the good vs evil thing
<Alkkleen> Ok obli that made me think of the black couldron
<obli> i saw the movie Alkkleen
<obli> i don't know Otter
<obli> its too northern for me to true to derive any deep meaning from
<@Otter> i'm not placing morris
<@Otter> full name or titles?
<Alkkleen> Sauron was satan n frodo was jesus lockin the gates of hell
<@Otter> i remember christians being up in arms about harry potter
<obli> narnia is alot more pseudo medievalist via morris
<Alkkleen> Rofpmfslol
<Tj_inLove> Alkkleen: O.o
<@Otter> whle others declared it "good christian entertainment"
<obli> william morris
<@Otter> same with LOTR
<Alkkleen> I remember the book burnins Otter
<obli> founder of the arts and crafts movement
<obli> first fantasy authour (who wrote about fantasy lands having nothing to do with earth)
<obli> artist
<obli> socialist
<obli> medivalist
<obli> romantic
<obli> wallpaper designer
<obli> died like 1898
<@Otter> ah, same guy?
<@Otter> okay
<@Otter> didn't realize the textile giant was the same person
<Alkkleen> I have a balrog for my lockscreen on my laptop
<obli> hjeh
<Alkkleen> Then lucian from underworld as my mobiles background
<obli> its 1am
<obli> i have been awake 5 hours
<obli> i have not got out of bed
<obli> i should do so
<Alkkleen> Idc what you say lucian was a mental giant
<obli> :P
<Alkkleen> He was a pure genius
<Alkkleen> Now a dead genius but still was smart
<@Otter> obli, going back to your question about paganism being a popular post-modern choice
<@Otter> i think a lot less about popularity than a baptist preacher
<@Otter> i can see why it's a major concern for him
<@Otter> personally, i hope it's not THAT popular a choice
<obli> it's a concern for me
<@Otter> or that the popularity comes fiarly gradually
<obli> its the legacy left to us by our ancestors
<@Otter> i do think the world would benefit from more paganism
<@Otter> but only if it's solid paganism
<obli> not a horrific illfitting thing like christianity
* Otter nods
<@Otter> i think it can be very healthy
<@Otter> it's hard to see mainstream culture transistioning to paganism, though
<obli> its already there
<obli> it just worships money :P
<obli> this is why more self awareness would be good
<@Otter> is it?
<@Otter> lol
<@Otter> $theism
<@Otter> i think rapid popularization of paganism would give you something like wicca
<@Otter> still basically monotheistic
<@Otter> probably with a lot more good vs evi in it
<@Otter> maybe still retaining concepts like sin
<@Otter> jesus in a dress
<Alkkleen> In a way he was in a dress
<@Otter> slower popularization would give time for people to learn what paganism is about before teaching others
<@Otter> and make it more likely that noobs would learn from someone who has a clue
<Alkkleen> ^^^^
<obli> i think we have very little control over what happens on a mass scale
<obli> we just need to put putting out the best stuff we are capible of
<obli> i guess
<@Otter> yes, but it's part of our whole deal as pagans, hence it'll be all our fault when it goes wrong
<@Otter> ;-Þ
<@Otter> i agree, our individual influence is limited
<@Otter> that's why i hope any mass movmenet into paganism is slow
<@Otter> so that the proportion of pagans to cluless remains manageable
<@Otter> but "slow" isn't really a thing these days
<obli> well
<obli> there are many things that can be done
<obli> including getting primary sources into more hands
* Otter nods
<@Otter> that would be very useful
<@Otter> and it's very much a postneopagan thing to do
<obli> codifing primary sources
<obli> also
<@Otter> ?
<obli> into streams of practice
<@Otter> ah
<@Otter> yes
<@Otter> interpretation is the thing there though, eh?
<obli> yeah
<obli> maybe i should do religious studeies next year :p
<@Otter> it becomes sort of a rorschach blot
<obli> somewhat
<obli> the orphic stuff for example
<obli> is pretty agreed upon by schoolars
<obli> as to what constitutes orphic texts
<@Otter> people will find what they look for, even if it's not there
<@Otter> right
<obli> and the primary orphic teachers are known too
<obli> not just orpheus but the orphic equivlent of paul and the guy who recorded him
<@Otter> that will be a great help if orpheanism becomes popular
<obli> heh
<obli> i'm just saying
<obli> theres enough meat there if someone serious were interested
<@Otter> i wish we had that kind of documentation for some of hte other paths
<obli> orphism requires some quite serious sacrifices though
<obli> meat for one
<obli> and you are basicly expected to become a wondering monk
<obli> :P
<@Otter> wandering or wondering?
<obli> wandering
<obli> as well
<@Otter> probably not a mainstream thing, then
<@Otter> although you never know
<@Otter> people can cherry pick
<obli> the oldest surviving orphic text is a criticism of an orphic theogony
<obli> so i guess they wondered as well
<obli> i wonder how
<obli> the ending of the war on drugs will change things
<@Otter> i think your point about fiction as a way to spread core concepts is a good one
<obli> visa vie religion and drugs
<@Otter> people here are getting pretty tired of being at war with drugs
<@Otter> may see it as a tremendous waste of resources with no clear benefit
<@Otter> many see
<Tj_inLove> Otter: they do?
<obli> hmm
<@Otter> google "war on drugs" and count negative vs positive essays
<obli> last year
<obli> i wrote an examination
<@Otter> i'm not sure about percenatges, but my impression is the tide is turning
<obli> of diffrent cult structures
<obli> i think
<obli> something like how astrology currently functions
<obli> is how a mainstream paganism would work
<obli> no central authority
<@Otter> the federal gov't remains anti-cannabis, but many of hte states have passed laws to legalize it in one way or another
<@Otter> do you think we'd have a simplified oracle in the newspaper?
<obli> a loose nit assosiation of soothsayers and diviners
<obli> being the primary contact between most people and the will of the gods
<obli> actually
<@Otter> so far, none of hte would-be pagan popes has had much success
<obli> mediums
<@Otter> that's encouraging
<obli> is probably
<obli> is a better term
<obli> so yes
<obli> instructing the spiritualist community in the ins and outs of paganism
<obli> could be fruitful
<obli> through litterature
<obli> or direct engagement
<@Otter> i tell new people to give themselves at least two years of study and asking questions to be able to track a pan-pagan discussion
<obli> :)
<@Otter> paganism is not a single thing that can be easily described
<@Otter> now, that's fine for seekers
<@Otter> most poeple aren't really seekers, though
<obli> well thats part of this codification project
<obli> being able to tell people, this is one of the ways in which classical polytheism was practiced :P
<obli> heres the primary sources you should look at
<obli> for this
<@Otter> so what will joe sixpack make of this gordian knot of spiritual concepts?
* Otter nods
<@Otter> and i think you need to make a movie based on that work, lol
<obli> i have no idea what it will be once its done
<@Otter> happy digging
<@Otter> hmmm, and there's joe campbell
<@Otter> someone like that could be highly influential too
<obli> i don't really like him
<@Otter> lol
<obli> to much confligation of far flung things
<@Otter> blasphemy!
<@Otter> configuration?
<obli> mashing together
<obli> as the same
<@Otter> conflatoin?
* Otter nods
<obli> its
<obli> a bit too
<@Otter> i agree
<obli> perennial philosophy
<@Otter> he has some good points
<obli> heh
<obli> i got one of his books
<obli> opened it
<obli> and it was spouting some just world bullshit
<@Otter> but he's a bit like those people who want all gods whose names begin with B to be the same
<@Otter> or who conflate all godesses who are mothers
<@Otter> into a sort of deity casserole
<obli> about karma and how anything bad that happens to you is your fault :P
<obli> i'll stick with jung
<@Otter> lol
<@Otter> did he actually say "fault"?
<obli> probably not
<obli> but do they ever
<obli> its not hardcore bibliomancy to read between the lines with those kind of things :P
<obli> or litteray criticism... or whatevers
<@Otter> ah
<@Otter> i hadn't thought about that until just now
<@Otter> what role will the homenizers play?
<obli> homenizers?
<obli> Did you mean: homogenizers harmonizers humanizers womanizers
<obli> ;P
<@Otter> homogenizers
<@Otter> left out just a few letters
Otter [Otter@50-104-5-4.prtg.in.frontiernet.net] requested CTCP PING from obli: 1404654113
<obli> heh
<obli> yeah
<obli> i'm lagging a bit
<@Otter> i can see Paganism being presented as a religion
<obli> sometimes up to a minute
<obli> well what role to homegenizers play in astrology :P ?
<@Otter> with massive conflation of deities and concepts
<@Otter> hmmm, i havne't studied astrology enough to say
<@Otter> isn't astrology basically one system, though?
<obli> nah
<obli> theres ancient roman astrology
<obli> rennisaance astorlogy
<obli> a variety of modern and scientific systems
<obli> i'm sure theres medieval astrology
<obli> indian astrology
<obli> babloyean astrology
<@Otter> different eras, yes
<@Otter> what about popular astrology, though?
<@Otter> what people are talking about when the want to know what your sign is
<@Otter> i poked around with that many years ago, but didn't dig into origins
<obli> fluff and bullshit ?
<obli> the stuff in magazines is fluff and bullshit
<@Otter> lol
<obli> peoples star signs are a legacy of roman astrology
<obli> i think they are like a whole house out of whack in the scientific systems
<obli> becuase the solar system has moved
<obli> :P
<@Otter> that depends on whether it's really the stars that influence people and events
<obli> well the position of the constellations has changed in the last 3000 years
<@Otter> if the influence is largely within the solar system, and the stars were basically being used as a big clock
<obli> thats just science
<@Otter> then the fact that stars don't appear at the same time anymore doesn't matter so muich
<obli> i see astrology like tarot
<obli> a meditative object
<obli> not a predictor of the future
<@Otter> yes, but again. is it really about the stars
<@Otter> my impression when i worked with it back when was that there was something there, but it wasn't actually astrology
<obli> thats getting more detailed than i personally am privy to
<obli> the scientific astrologers think it matters
<obli> i imagine they are a minority
<@Otter> it seemed more of a very complex seasonal system to me
<@Otter> about the earth's orbit, with the stars as markers
<obli> but a reasonably sized one
<obli> hmm
<@Otter> i use the tarot for mediation and for communication of concepts
<@Otter> i rarely use it for divination
<@Otter> i can definitely see doing that with astrology
<obli> the oracle of delphi is interesting
<@Otter> brb
<obli> her prophesies seem to have had a major effect on quite a few important lives
<obli> me too
<obli> gonna shower
posted by Classical Polytheist @ 07:15
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