wicca and reconstructionism
<Otter> hi Obli
<obli> hi chaps
<Eugenios> Non-reconstructionist paths
<obli> 'hey otter
<@Craig> heya obli
<obli> hi Craig
<Eugenios> I've had people who tried to make me feel close-minded and ignorant because I don't jump at the chance to join in eclectic rituals - that Pagans need to be this way. This is the impetus for recons for not calling themselves Pagan
* Otter shrugs
<Otter> i don't let anyone else define the spiritual words i use for me
<obli> heh
<obli> pagan :P
<Eugenios> I don't let them define me either. I'm just tired of Pagan groups who are ONLY interested in rituals
<Eugenios> Discussion is a lot more open
<Eugenios> And doesn't necessitate conformity of path or tradition
<Otter> i wish others would stop doing that. first about half of the actual wiccans started calling themselves something else to disassociate themselves from the fad crowd
<Otter> and the same thing is happening to "pagan"
<obli> maybe we need a concept like "mana"
<Otter> how far do we run from the fluff bunnies?
<Eugenios> Each tradition has it's own concepts
<Otter> actually, maybe it started happening for "pagan" with the pagan/heathen split. which in my mind doesn't actually exist
<@Craig> it does in the mind of heathens
<Otter> i agree. discussion allows a lot more room
<@Craig> 'We're doing something real, not just making up shit like those wiccans'
<Eugenios> We don't have to all be apart of the same group
<Otter> exactly, Craig
<obli> well wassn't the first "definition-al" statement the one made against satanists
<obli> i need to stop using quotation marks :P
<Eugenios> I think of Paganism as a community or subculture for alternative spriituality
<@Craig> when all any of us are doing is looking at the world around us, now, and doing what makes sense to us
<Otter> but heathen and pagan are etyumologically identical, and, fluffbunnies aside, are synonyms in modern usage as well
<@Craig> true
<Eugenios> But a lot of people try to make Paganism into a set philosophy of "earth centered spirituality" with very specific trappings
<Eugenios> Forcing very divergent traditions into the same mold
<@Craig> there's always going to be people who want to homogenize people
<Eugenios> The differences between Pagan, Heathen, Ethnikoi, etc... Have little to do with words. They have to do with philosophical focus.
<Otter> to me, "paganism" means the native spiritual traditions of europe. i include modern traditions that were inspired by them.
<Eugenios> And many people feel that way - even Recons
<Eugenios> That's not the problem
<obli> i think the whole problem is the pagan/nature and earth based spiritualities label
<Eugenios> The problem is the expectation of public ritual that includes everybody
<obli> hmm
<Eugenios> The expectation of political ties, and having the community represent all paths
<Eugenios> Let me ask you all... do you think it's unreasonable for a Heathen, Hellenist, Celtic Recon, Kemetic Recon, etc... to not want to join in a Neopagan (Wiccan, Druid, etc..) ritual?
<Otter> "pagan" has never meant just wicca or poorly rooted vaguely nature worshipping spirituality
<Eugenios> And furthermore, there are different kinds of Wiccans and Druids that don't want to practice together too
<Otter> Kevin, i object to being lumped in with the Wiccans
<Otter> quite a bit
<@Craig> no, but I don't care much for public or group rituals in the first place...I think it's unreasonable for anyone to expect you to do anything besides pay your taxes, honestly
<Otter> neopagan my ass
<Otter> i have no problem with you wanting to clelebrate only with people of like mind
<obli> if wicca were to disappear... do you think identifying as a pagan would be so frought?
<Otter> but i get damned tired of you trying to define my own spirituality for me
<Eugenios> No
<Eugenios> Honestly
<Eugenios> Neo-Wicca at least
<Eugenios> Is a lot of the source of contention, and the reason for the tension
<Otter> i agree with Craig. things being waht they are, i don't think the taxes are particluarly reasonable either
<@Craig> heh
<obli> wicca is built on false (historical) pretenses... above and beyond what honest mistakes due to lack of information
<obli> in a way that seperates it from other paganisms
<Otter> or honest mistakes due to lack of information or incorrect information never corrected
<obli> yerah
<Eugenios> Wiccans are the most common form of Pagan, so they tend to run Pagan groups the most. And the ones that do are constantly contextualizing Paganism in terms of their path - making it worse by putting a bunch of Wiccan symbols and phrases on these groups and websites more than anything else
<obli> wicca is kind of alien to other paganisms
<Eugenios> It's a modern mystery tradition based on older Pagan religions
<Otter> it's basically monotheistic
<Eugenios> So it takes a much different perspective
<Otter> which really does set it apart
<Eugenios> Yes
<@Craig> I think a lot of wiccans understand that their path isn't rooted in anything ancient beyond having come from humans, and are fine with that
<Eugenios> It's completely valid, and when followed correctly, encourages a lot of spriitual growth. But Neo-Wiccans are usually fad-pagans
<obli> duotheistic
<Eugenios> Agreed
<Otter> yes, obli, but the One God and One Goddess are in turn aspects of a single, unkowable godhead
<Otter> so monotheistic at its core
<obli> i wonder if there would be less friction of wicca's ur text were "aridia" rather than "the witch cult in western europe"
<Otter> at least with the mainstream Wiccan cosmology. there are variants of course
<Otter> ur text?
<obli> primary foundational text that it all sprung from
<@Craig> doubt it, since Gardner took a lot from that text anyway when he created his form of wicca
<obli> well
<obli> he took spells from it
<obli> and chants
<obli> but how much would it bring wicca into line with other paganisms were the primary deity involved explicitly Diana rather than some psuedo celtic archetypes
<Eugenios> brb - coffee
<@Craig> hmm good question
<@Craig> could ask an Italian family which, since the're not "Neo-", and aren't holding the torches and burning paganism down
<Otter> having a specific dieity or pantheon would go a long way
<Otter> i see that as the primary difference between wicca and the rest
<Otter> or even going to local discussions
<Otter> and for me, it's the main reason for not celebrating with them
<Otter> well, that and being a zombie
<obli> i think it probably wouldn't take alot to make aradia the primary text of wicca....
<obli> 2 or 3 people on the internet
<obli> and a concerted effort
<Otter> but i get very tired of explaining that i do not have one god and one goddess, and no, i didn't get that wrong
<obli> to wiccans?
<Otter> how do you figure that, Obli?
<Otter> yes
<Otter> or wiccanoids
<obli> well wicca at this point is entirely eclectic
<obli> any wiccans you are going to meet in the wild anyway
<Otter> part of the problem with "pagan" now is that so many wiccans stopped calling themselves wiccans to diassociate with the saw "charmed" and skimmed "teen witch" set
<obli> so basicly its a two pronged propaganda drive... raise awareness of aradia and emphasise it's historic importance
<obli> :P
<Otter> i've met a two or three trad wiccans online
<Otter> but yeah, they're a drop in the ocean
<@Craig> Even wiccans who are dedicated to a particular pair as God and Goddess are going to acknowledge that another Wiccan with different Gods are still practicing wicca...it's kind of built in to the definition
* Otter nods
<@Craig> I'm seeing that it's Wicca that needs to get out of paganism to stop the confusion
<Otter> because to them, all the gods are The God, and all the godesses are The Goddess
<Otter> i don't know, Craig
<obli> write a llywelyn rewrite of aradia in that simplistic and reassuring teen fiction tone, but keep all the chants and prayer origional :P
<Otter> i consider wicca to be pagan
<@Craig> which doesn't preclude the existence of individual Gods and Goddesses for a wiccan
<@Craig> how?
<obli> the problem with wicca is it can be anything
<obli> \i doubt many christo-pagans are reconsructionists :P
<Otter> lol
<Otter> actually they could be
<Otter> but you're right, few probalby are
<obli> reconsructing greco-egyptian magic maybe :P
<Otter> they could reconstruct european christopaganism as it existed up to about the 14th century
<Eugenios> There are Greco-Egyptian recons
<Otter> in some places, they apparently didn't make a strong distinction
<Eugenios> There are also Gallo-Roman and Norse-Gaelic too
<obli> yeah
<obli> i meant specificly greeco-egyptian magic though
<obli> which was as eclectic as wicca :P
<obli> how do you guys feel about serious ceremonial magicans identifying as pagan
<Eugenios> There are Hermetic paths, as well as "Hermetist"
<Otter> well, i wouldn't worry about it
<@Craig> and regardless of what anyone thinks they're reconsctructing, all they have is their view of it NOW, which is colored and influenced by everything around them, including a hundred other faiths and mundane factors, no matter how good the scholarship they're using
<obli> do hermeticists identify as pagan often?
<Eugenios> CM actually makes sense within the context of Paganism, since it's use of Christian imagery is similar to various forms of Medieval Witchcraft as well as African Diasporic traditions
<Eugenios> The core elements are essentially Pagan
<Otter> i don't generally think of them as pagan, though. but that may just be because i haven't looked too deeply into their tradition
<Eugenios> Hermeticism and Neoplatonism are rooted in Greek Religion
<Eugenios> The use of Kabbalah is a result of aggregation of esoteric doctrine through the Renaissance
<obli> craig ... i think thats kind of a self defeating veiw...
<Eugenios> I don't think that occultists should be left out
<Eugenios> There aren't that many of us
<Eugenios> Hence why I feel that discussion groups are so important
<Otter> oh, i wouldn't leave them out
<Otter> the question is are they pagan
<Otter> and i'm really not sure
<Eugenios> Personally, no
<Otter> generally when i hear abrahamic terms, i think "not pagan"
<@Craig> how so obli?
<Eugenios> I consider Hermetic traditions to stem from Hermeticism, which was a religion at one point
<Eugenios> A Gnostic tradition
<obli> its not even a question of if they are pagan... its more that the run the same gammet as wiccans
<obli> though they are more serious
<Eugenios> A combination of Pagan and Judeo-Christian elements
<obli> genrally
<Otter> yes, you do have a point
<Otter> CM and Wicca have that in common
<Otter> so if wicca is pagan, then perhaps CM is, or at least can be, too
<Otter> any chance of getting Heidi to join us, Craig?
<obli> paganism derives from prehistoric religions right craig... i think any natural response you are to your pantheon (or whatever) is as legitimately pagan as someones response 3000 years ago :P
<@Craig> That's exactly my point, obli :)
<@Craig> so making distinctions between new versions or authentic reconstructions amounts to the same response to a spiritual impetus
<@Craig> nope Otter. I doubt she'd have any input as far as the CM goes, she studied it for 3 or 4 months over ten years ago
<Otter> in my expereience with norse, germanic, and celtic hardcore recons, their "authetic reconstructionst tradition" has enormous gaps which have either been filled to make a working traidtion
<Otter> or remain open leaving no possibliyt of actual practice
<Otter> those who practice with a bondo often don't realize how much of what they're doing is only weakly grounded in history
<obli> the problem those traditions face is a lack of texts really...
<Otter> ah, okay
<Otter> i thought it was longer than that
<@Craig> filled in different ways, which results in the different denominations of recons
* Otter nods
<obli> if you have texts there comes a point when you have enough of them that they can be considered to function as as much of a guide as say the bible
<@Craig> even then, who wrote them, who changed what in different versions
<Otter> yes
<Otter> what's written down was written by christians
<Otter> who probalby didn't really understand, and may have let their own agendas interfere
<@Craig> I have as much of an aversion to reconstruction as Eugenios has to neo- things :)
<Otter> hmmm, i'm not sure what that means, Obli
<obli> at this point theres enough orphic texts in publication that if you made a concerted study of them and put them into practice i don't think there would be any issue with calling yourself an orphic for example
<Eugenios> Fair enough, Craig
<Eugenios> The difference here though, is that neo-things have the majority
<Eugenios> And don't look too kindly on recony-things
<@Craig> nodnod, I totally understand your need to not be subjected to what they want you to be
<@Craig> that's a whole other issue, which goes down to people being immoral, beyond any particular path
<Eugenios> it's human nature
<Eugenios> People of weak character abuse the status quo to their own selfish ends
<Otter> Kevin, it seems to me that evangelism is one of the few taboos in paganism
<Otter> and it is taboo across all the traditions
<Otter> even Wicca
<obli> how much of that is due to prejudice though
<obli> evangalism is hard work even when the bulk of society is on your side :P
<Otter> so i'm not sure where these people you say try to coerce you into joining their rituals are coming from
<obli> when there are 100 of you and they think you are satanists... i can see why evangalism doesn't come naturally :P
<@Craig> my reconphobia comes from wasting ten years trying to piece together things in a path I felt drawn to...and realizing after spending all that time I had nothing more than when I started...just a spiritual impulse and a pile of dubious scholarship, and a realization that *no one* on that path thought anyone was doing anything right besides themselves
<@Craig> lol obli
<Otter> LOL
<Eugenios> Otter: I've heard what you're saying a thousand times - people deny that prominent Neopagans who run groups are coercive in nature... largely because of "liberal consensus": It's okay to be a jerk, because I'm doing so for the sake of equanimity/equality/peace and love/some other BS
<obli> what path were you attempting to reconstruct Craig
<Otter> you mean the Asapopes, Craig?
<@Craig> no, every single heathen
<Otter> really
<@Craig> yes
<Otter> tha'ts not my experience of heathens in general
<Otter> though maybe that's because i'm a Gael and so they aren't interested in whether or not i practice the One True Asatuar Tradition
<@Craig> Asatru, heathenry, Forn Sed, etc
<Eugenios> I've heard the same logic about gay men: "You're just meeting the wrong gay men. What you're saying about gay men are negative stereotypes, therefore they don't exist"
<Otter> is that a response to what i said, Kevin?
<obli> classical polytheism is great... i am drowning under so many resources my current project is just seperating out all the forms religious expression took so i can see which ones will be most fruitful for me to push ahead with :P
<Eugenios> Pointing out flaws and negative behavior is taboo among groups that stress liberality, because they can't accept that groups preaching acceptance have dickheads like the rest of the general populous
<Eugenios> Otter: I'm merely pointing out what I have experienced with regards to group dynamics
<Otter> that's quite a project, obli
<@Craig> hehe obli, good luck! Even if you manage to just rule out a lot, you'll be ahead
<Otter> okay, Kevin. i was asking about "the same logic"
<obli> cheers :)
<Otter> i wondered if you were referring to something i said
<Eugenios> I was demonstrating examples
<Otter> and i fnot, what were you referring to?
<Eugenios> And they almost always have something to do with liberal-leaning groups
<Eugenios> "Don't question us, because whatever methods you think are wrong, they are right, because we have the truth" - a liberal form of fascism that I've seen in the pagan community, the gay community, and in virtually every music or media based subculture
<Eugenios> Atheists too
<Otter> not sure what makes that liberal, but then i consider "liberatl" and "conservative" to be nondescriptive terms, useful only for declaring which side of the current political rift you identify wtih
<obli> i have like 20 different categories... some quite specific (like the oracle of delphi, or the iguvine tablets) and some quite broad (the theology of the poets, rituals of local cults)
<obli> and some of the categories play into each other :P
* Otter nods
<@Craig> I agree Otter...again, it's just despicable human behavior, no need to put a political label on it
<@Craig> you might see patterns emerging on the ones that overlap
<obli> hopefully :)
<@Craig> I have this image of you with all these written on index cards, spread all out on the floor around you
<@Craig> heh, stereotypes are very often true
<@Craig> grouping some, burning others
<Otter> even today, when spirituality is called Religion and it's expected that each group will have it's own absolute dogma and reject all others
<Otter> there is a lot of overlap
<obli> i'm making little 8 page pamplets with an overview (as much as possible) and the most evocative information on each catagory in them
<obli> for each topic
<@Craig> and even the most dogmatic group has some groups that they think are basically okay, and others that are just evil cults
<Otter> very interesting, Obli
<Otter> do you intend to put this smorgasbord up on the web?
<obli> i could.. i have them saved as like pdfs
<obli> they all entirely ignore copyright ;P
<Otter> i'd definitely like to take a look at Obli's Notes for the various traditions and categories
<Otter> ah, lol
<obli> i've only got like 5 of them done atm
<Otter> that might be a problem
<obli> i can pass them on to you anyway
<Otter> though many of your sources are probably old enough that copyright isn't an issue
<Otter> thanks, i'd appreciate that
<obli> but they're a good start for rewritting introductions to the topics if the need arises too
<Otter> so what would be a more positive polythesitic response to Wiccan and Wiccanoid attempts at assimiliation, or just flat out ignorance that anything else exists?
<obli> early in the year i was trying to make a flow chart of the legacy of various aspects of classical polytheism... it ended up a massive nebulous mess before it even cleared antiquity... thats why i started this
<obli> hmm
<obli> maybe an important question
<obli> since wicca is so eclectic
<@Craig> that's a good question...I'd say the same thing they probably say to Christians...'look, I understand your path means a lot to you, and you see my gods a certain way. My path doesn't see it that way, so please don't expect me to as well."
<@Craig> and if someone can't take that well, then they're just dead set on being confrontational
<@Craig> and the six reasonable people around them will respect you for it, even if that particular person doesn't
<Otter> i've said someting like that many times
<obli> is what are the current influences on wicca that make it so incompatible with other pagan paths
<obli> or is it something inherant
<@Craig> It's inherent
<obli> why?
<obli> becuase of the idea of the god and goddess?
<@Craig> Basically because of what Otter said...primarily it's monotheistic/duotheistic
<@Craig> most wiccans believe all the individual gods and goddesses have individual reality, but they also would have no problem honoring Shiva as their God and Brigid as their Goddess
<@Craig> not many polytheists would mix that broadly
<@Craig> When I was a hard polytheist I saw wiccans as theives
<Otter> i think there are two things. one is that wiccans and hard polytheists just aren't talking about the same thing when they say "Brighid" or "Thor"
<Otter> both cosmologies are valid, but they're not compatible
<obli> i think one of my problems with wicca is i don't understand what draws someone to wicca
<Otter> the other issue is that there are so many following the wiccan cosmology who don't realize that hard polytheism even exists
<obli> understand it on a personal level
<obli> i get it intellectually
<obli> but its not the same thi ngs that draw people reconstructionism
<Otter> i actually have no problem with someone communing with both Shiva and Brighid
<Otter> becuase i see these being... well Brighid anyway, i've never met Shiva ... as individual beings, i see no reason why someone might not work with members of two different pantheons
<Otter> because the gods are NOT ideas or archetypes
<Otter> they are actual beings
<obli> wassn't jungs conception of the archetype alot more nuanced than how it is used now
<obli> i blame campbell :P
<Otter> and who is any of us to say they're not allowed to cross borders and helph whomever they choose?
<@Craig> I can only tell you what drew me to Wicca obli, but that might be instructive...I've been broken spiritually and emotionally for a long time, and since I don't even know what that really means, a system that is intellectually sound is something I can work with to try to pick up the pieces
<Otter> LOL
<@Craig> so, I'm not far off from where you are sitting, lol...I get it intellectually, and I'm hoping the rest will fill in
<Otter> oh, Obli, reason 3 whey wiccan and the other traditions don't mix so well. a significant number of wiccans, not sure what the percentage would be, object to gods and goddesses that have thoughts of their own becuase this reminds them too much of christianity
<obli> maybe i'm off base here
<obli> but i get the impression
<obli> many wiccans are drawn to it by the promise of magical powers
<obli> or just sticking it to christians :P
<@Craig> that goes in cycles...it's in a down cycle now
<@Craig> wait for the next movie to come out
<Otter> this came up a few times while preparing for rituals with my grove. for instance, when choosing a particular goddess to invite for one ritual, to replace the generic Lady Spring or some such in the ritual we recieved from OBOD
<obli> i want someone to do a "life of hermes trismegistus"
<Otter> the two Christians were fine with this. they both exclaimed "we Love Brighid!"
<Tj_inLove> Otter: http://imgur.com/IK7VQBT
<Otter> but our wiccan was very leery, because she felt that having a more definite goddess would require the sort of groveling worship and sheepishness she left christianity to get away from
<@Craig> eenteresting
<Tj_inLove> Otter: i think its the sort of thing that stiicks with you
<Tj_inLove> some ppl do the sheepish grovely thing no matter what
<obli> pretty new age :P
<Tj_inLove> its VERY hard to get away from what ure born into
<Tj_inLove> obli: sticking it to christians..yea...man i hate that crowd
<@Craig> Since I've never met any beings I can't put my hands on, that's probably another reason I don't have a problem with Wicca. I don't have to spend my time wishing I could see the things I'm claiming to believe.
<Tj_inLove> Craig: yeeeaaap thats my biggest issue with finding a path
<@Craig> I can see how if you've met a few beings in a pantheon, the idea of Wiccan deity would make as much sense as saying every man yo meet is named Bob
<Otter> claim to believe is toxic, Craig
<@Craig> obviously, lol
<Otter> you shouldn't need "faith". faith is mostly pretense or denial
<Otter> if you have experiences to back a belief up, then faith isn't an issue
<Otter> if you don't, then i'm not sure how youc an truly believe it
<Otter> so yeah. Seax Wicca :-) go for it
<obli> Eugenios: may i have your opinion on something
<Eugenios> Sure
<Eugenios> Shoot
<obli> what would you say Discordianism's relationship was to Hellenismos
== Tj_inLove has changed nick to Tj_Away
<@Craig> you know what, you're absolutely right, I'm doing it again. Oh well, $130 down the toilet, heh
<Otter> what?
<obli> was= is
<Otter> if that was a response to what i said, Craig, then i was right about something i didn't say
<@Craig> that's how much I spent on ritual stuff...I'm doing it again, trying to force something that's not there
<Otter> doh
<Otter> i was drawn to the old holidays
<Otter> didn't really have a clue about the gods
<Otter> and didn't practice any partiuclar tradition
<Otter> but i did practice
<@Craig> actually it isn't all a waste, the rune books I'll get use out of, those I've felt a connection to
* Otter nods
<Otter> you know, i was a godless pagan for years
<Otter> you might wind up using your tools too
<Otter> maybe you just need to follow Craigism for a while
<Eugenios> Discordianism has no relationship with Hellenismos in any practical sense
<Eugenios> Eris/Discordia is a less deity or daimona with minimal emphasis in Greek Religion
<Eugenios> lesser*
<Otter> be the horse, let the cart follow you
<@Craig> same old
<Eugenios> Discordianism has more in common with Chaos Magick, IMO
<Otter> is it, Craig?
<obli> well discordianism is one of the strands from which chaos magic arose
<obli> would you characterise nyx as a lesser deity Eugenios ?
<Eugenios> Nyx is a protogenoi - not really a deity that had much emphasis in public cult, but was considered a primal force of nature
<@Craig> kind of fell in love with Discordianism back in college when I read The Illuminatus Trilogy...not in any praticing way, but I've always had a soft spot for it
<obli> do you place much of emphisis on public cult Eugenios
<obli> i read.... somewhere, about an oracle of nyx
<obli> there we are
<obli> According to Pausanias, she had an oracle on the acropolis at Megara.
<obli> i guess my question would be. does emphasising a lesser deity put them outside the pale of hellenism
<obli> pail
<obli> :P
<obli> guess i should have a shower
<Eugenios> obli: I would like to have public ritual, but current circumstances don't allow that. I'm solitary by circumstances
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<PonderWolf> MM
<Otter> i think obli was asking if modern descendents of ancient greek oddballism could be considered hellenistic, or if only the more well known traditions belong
<Otter> hi Roy
<obli> heh
<obli> its more complicated than that otter
<obli> its more a question
<obli> of if discordians have a legitimate understanding of eris
<obli> in my mind
<obli> to my mind
<obli> :P
<Otter> ah....
<Eugenios> oddballism?
<Eugenios> Discordian's view of Eris is completely anarchonistic/ahistorical
<Eugenios> She was viewed negatively
<Otter> so, if Eris exists, perhaps modern people might understand her, or some aspects of her, even better than the ancients?
<@Craig> well, to their own system they're consistent...I guess you really need to decide which frame of reference you're looking from. Or just from a 'is it right for me' kind of framework
<Eugenios> Differently perhaps, better - that's subjective
<Eugenios> But it isn't apart of Hellenismos
<Otter> very
<obli> its closer to hellenismos than say... wicca is though
<Eugenios> Actually... though it pains me to say this, Wicca is closer to Hellenismos than Discordianism
<Eugenios> The underlying element of Wiccan ritual is Hellenistic, via the Thelemic/Hermetic structures
<obli> heh
<Eugenios> Discordianism is post-religious
<Eugenios> It is in direct contrast to devotional ritual
<Eugenios> It's a parody religion
<obli> i view kaballah as being primarily jewish
<Eugenios> There are some Erisian cabals which are more cult like, but they are the exception
<Eugenios> Kabbalah was a later addition
<Eugenios> From the Renaissance
<obli> thelema is pretty directly kabbalistic :P
<Eugenios> But Thelema is modern
<obli> yes
<Eugenios> Which is itself based on Renaissance Hermeticism
<Eugenios> Which stems from Hellenistic spirituality, in turn
<Eugenios> (Hellenic is Classical Greek, Hellenistic is late Roman period "Greco-Roman" mysticism
<Eugenios> )
<Eugenios> An extension of Golden Dawn
<obli> yeah
<obli> i just disagree about how hellenistic the kaballah is
<obli> b
<obli> about as hellenistic as theosophicalism in my book :P
<Eugenios> The Kabbalah was added later, like I said
<obli> i agree
<obli> i guess i just don't understand emphasising ritual over the gods
<obli> seems kind of self defeating to me... you are opening yourself to every attack on historical accuracy that way
<Eugenios> I just tried one of my carrot pickles (after 24 hours). It was so damn good
<Eugenios> Very soft texture, and has a sort of spicy curry type flavor
<Eugenios> Freaking delicious
posted by Classical Polytheist @ 22:17
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