more idoltry

[04:24] <obli> theres an old neoplatonic text by Sallustius called "on the gods and the cosmos"

[04:24] <obli> whic says

[04:25] <obli> The cosmos itself must of necessity be indestructible and uncreated. Indestructible because, suppose it destroyed: the only possibility is to make one better than this or worse or the same or a chaos. If worse, the power which out of the better makes the worse must be bad. If better, the maker who did not make the better at first must be imperfect in power. If the same, there will be no use in making it; if a chaos... it is impious even to hear such a thing suggeste

[04:25] <obli> d

[04:25] <@Otter> it's obvious if you watch a few of her music videos.  she's into burlesque

[04:25] <obli> yeah Otter

[04:25] <obli> i wonder what neil gaimans home life is like

[04:25] <obli> :P

[04:27] <obli> i like how the dismissal  of the possibility of the universe arising from chaos is a brand it a heresy :P

[04:27] <TheWolf> That doesn't make sense really obli

[04:27] <@Otter> who is neil gaiman?

[04:28] <obli> her husband... famous writer

[04:28] <obli> what about it doesn't make sense TheWolf ? the whole thing?

[04:28] <@Otter> ah

[04:28] <@Otter> i wonder if he's an extrovert too

[04:28] <TheWolf> well those conclusions he makes

[04:29] <TheWolf> God could be making a bad world to help us grow.  A better one to help us grow. etc

[04:29] <@Otter> i agree.  apply the same logic to any object, and it's nonsensical

[04:30] <@Otter> i don't see the connection that makes it valid when applied to the entire universe

[04:30] <obli> i guess their conception of god is tied to the platonic conception of "the good" TheWolf

[04:31] <@Otter> ah, right.  if you take a good and omnipotent god as a given, then i guess it does make logical sense

[04:32] <@Otter> OTOH, an athiest might use very similar logic to argue against the existence of such a god

[04:33] <obli> frankly i think the concept of a creator god is a tool of oppression

[04:34] <@Otter> it's certainly been used that way

[04:35] <obli> if you beleive in a creator god... that basicly shuts down any possibility of anything going against it's "plan"... so it just becomes a way to convince people to do your bidding in it's name

[04:35] <obli> chaos is a more elegant explanation :P

[04:39] <obli> you know how you can look at the world and either laugh of cry

[04:39] <obli> or

[04:39] <@Otter> i don't believe in such a god.  but assuming for the sake of argument that there is one, then isn't it part of the plan that i do what seems right to me?

[04:39] <@Otter> and think for myself?

[04:39] <@Otter> otherwise, why would i be like i am?

[04:39] <TheWolf> The anthopomorphosis of God seems a bit silly

[04:39] * Otter nods

[04:41] <obli> i don't have much time for beleifs that exist to maintain injustices

[04:41] <@Otter> i suppose the argument is that it's not anthropomorphism of god but deomorphism of humans

[04:42] <obli> no matter how much pie in the sky the offer in return for taking getting fucked over with gentle good humour :P

[04:42] <@Otter> LOL

[04:43] <TheWolf> What does deomorphism mean?  Couldn't find it in the dictionary

[04:44] == ogrom [~ogrom@82.131.91.28.cable.starman.ee] has joined #paganjourney

[04:45] <@Otter> i wonder if political control was at the root of the genesis of monotheism, or if it just happened to be a useful tool for that

[04:45] <@Otter> certainly it's been an   important factor in the spread of monotheism

[04:45] <@Otter> hi ogrom

[04:45] <@Otter> brb

[04:46] <obli> well

[04:46] <obli> look at its origionaors

[04:46] <obli> plato

[04:46] <obli> p horrible

[04:46] <obli> politically

[04:46] <obli> moses

[04:46] <obli> .

[04:46] <Tj_inLove> helol TheWolf

[04:48] <ogrom> hi Otter

[04:52] <@Otter> b

[04:54] <@Otter> moses probably wasn't a real person, though, at least not as described in the OT

[04:55] <obli> does that really matter?

[04:55] <obli> i mean

[04:55] <@Otter> yes

[04:55] <obli> the upshot of the moses story

[04:56] <obli> is you have some rules saying you can't worship any god but this paticular god

[04:56] <obli> thats the important bit

[04:56] <obli> :P

[04:56] <@Otter> exactly

[04:56] <obli> the idolatry rule is interesting too

[04:56] <@Otter>  now is that part of monotheism from the get go, or did that get added in because someone realized it strengthened their grip on hearts, minds, and the local economy?

[04:57] <obli> well

[04:57] <obli> if you don't have that

[04:57] <obli> then can you have monotheism?

[04:57] <obli> without that wouldn't monotheism tend toward looking something like theosophy

[04:58] <@Otter> not sure

[04:58] <obli> with a prime source or whatever... then a spiritual hireachy with devas and so on

[04:59] <obli> i have a theory about idolatry

[04:59] <obli> about why it was banned

[05:00] <obli> i think part of it may be the same reason divination was banned

[05:00] <@Otter> i haven't gotten very deep into either system

[05:00] <Tj_inLove> wihtout what?

[05:00] <Tj_inLove> banned ?

[05:00] <obli> by the 10 commandments

[05:01] <ogrom> why was divination banned?

[05:01] <@Otter> well, christianity is like that

[05:02] <ogrom> 10 commandments is not christianity

[05:02] <@Otter> they've got their One True God (Who optionallyh includes His Son), angels, saints, etc

[05:03] <obli> idolatry democratizes spirituality, your experience with an idol is unmeadiated by any religious teacher, and it allows a spiritual authority outside of scripture... i think most people can tell when an artwork has something powerful about it that transfixes you

[05:03] <Tj_inLove> obli: nod

[05:03] <@Otter> Tj: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_make_unto_thee_any_graven_image

[05:04] <@Otter> hmmm

[05:04] <Tj_inLove> Otter: right right

[05:04] <Tj_inLove> also..in terms of knowing God..idols are a distraction

[05:04] <Tj_inLove> and humans are easily distracted by shiny things

[05:06] <@Otter> so you think that having artwork as a focus makes direct communion more likely, whereas if people deal only with very abstract concepts of divniity, they are more likely to depend on the priesthood to tell them what's what?

[05:07] <@Otter> do think that was the driving force behind iconclasm, obli?

[05:07] <obli> i think an idol has the potential to be a useful meditative tool... you can consider the ways it is like the god and how it falls short

[05:08] <obli> it would be wrong to paint it as the whole story... but i think they are important things to consider

[05:08] <obli> but... this is basicly idol apologetics on my part... so take it as you will

[05:08] <obli> :P

[05:09] <Tj_inLove> Otter: part of me says yes... *but* it CAN make sense even in the absence of selfish preisthood

[05:09] <Tj_inLove> obli: like i said..ppl are easily distracted

[05:09] <Tj_inLove> hmm just realised bleeped out swear word seems to have a more drastic effect

[05:09] <obli> well

[05:10] <obli> it interesting to consider that early roman religion and shinto don't really have idols either

[05:10] <obli> but they are/were also very focused on place

[05:10] <Tj_inLove> obli: they did..iin a way

[05:10] <Tj_inLove> obli: they experienced the divine all around them

[05:11] <Tj_inLove> obli: so nature is the "idol"

[05:11] <obli> yeah

[05:11] <obli> which i think has a democratizing effect on spirituality

[05:12] <@Otter> brb

[05:13] <Tj_inLove> obli: yeap

[05:14] <obli> theres a Dionysian aspect in an effective artwork... it suggests something to your mind which you just kind of follow

[05:17] <@Otter> i'm told that early hebrew (if that's even the right word) spirituality had a lot of "god of this place"

[05:17] <@Otter> is more abstract art prohibited?

[05:17] <@Otter> mandalas, crosses, stars, etc?

[05:17] <@Otter> and what about candles?

[05:17] <@Otter> candle gazing is extremely effective for many people

[05:17] <@Otter> lol

[05:18] <obli> yeah,,, it's there in the fire

[05:19] <@Otter> a woman from my mother's quaker meeting told me that a neighbor of hers lit some candles and the police came because another neighbor had complained she was practicing satanism.  not sure how much of that actually happened, though

[05:19] <obli> thats one of the interesting things at winter solstice.... watching people getting hypnotised by the fire

[05:20] <@Otter> so how does the prohibition against "idolatry" have any effect if poeple are still allowed to gaze at fire?

[05:20] <obli> dancing with the fire

[05:20] <obli> well i don't think fire meditation is a big thing in christianity is it :P

[05:20] <obli> it's kind of inherantly nature worship

[05:21] <obli> fire being all... elemental and that :P

[05:21] <@Otter> depends on how you define big

[05:21] <@Otter> the catholics have their rosary beads

[05:21] <@Otter> oh, sorry, fire meditation

[05:21] <@Otter> i don't know

[05:21] <@Otter> do they pray over candles?

[05:21] <obli> they light candles in prayer

[05:21] == wulfbyrnan [~wulfbyrna@d24-141-154-71.home.cgocable.net] has joined #paganjourney

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[05:23] <obli> they don't really do the bonfire thing

[05:23] <obli> unless theres stakes and old women involved :P

[05:24] <@Otter> i know some sects light a lot of htem

[05:24] <@Otter> hi Wolf

[05:24] <@Otter> we're discussing monotheism, idols, etc

[05:24] <@Otter> perhaps the prohibition against idolatry is to keep people form differentiating their gods

[05:24] <@Otter> i've talked to a lot of people, and i have yet to meet a single one who actually worhshipped an idol

[05:24] <@Otter> i suppose the village idiot might have, but i doubt there was ever very much of that

[05:25] <obli> well... i dunno how much currancy the idea of "the fetish" has anymore

[05:25] <@Otter> the idol is a symbolic link, and would hope nearly everyone who actually uses one would know that

[05:25] <obli> but thats basicly what that is

[05:26] * Otter nods

[05:26] <obli> i have a book on fetish construction

[05:26] <@Otter> i'd have to go to the dictionaries to differentiate the two terms

[05:26] <obli> by either an incredibly eclectic 1950s occultist

[05:27] <obli> or a 90's chaos magician posing as the same

[05:27] <obli> :P

[05:27] <obli> where you are builting an object to worship

[05:27] <@Otter> LOL

[05:27] <@Otter> in the latter case, it's interesting that he only grandmothered it by 40 years

[05:28] <obli> but its also a deeply involved magical working so i guess the arguement could be made that it's the magic that is put into that connects it back into something greater than just the rolled up newspapers you are worshiping

[05:29] * Otter nods

[05:29] <@Otter> i honestly don't grok worship

[05:30] <obli> heh

[05:30] <obli> what else is there