deep theology
<@Otter> wb
<@Otter> 14:45] <obli> :P
<@Otter> [14:45] <Otter> the founder of #occult_practice was a satanist who had a relationship with Venus
<@Otter> [14:45] <Otter> i believe she sees Venus as a sort of egregore, though
<obli_> i dunno how to respond to that
<@Otter> what do you think of satanists using pagan deities?
<obli_> as its true in a sense... but its far from an entirely voluntary one
<obli_> depends upon the satanist
<@Otter> i'm not following
<obli_> <Otter> i believe she sees Venus as a sort of egregore, though
<obli_> its true in a sense... but its far from an entirely voluntary one
<@Otter> not entirely voluntary for whom?
<obli_> humans in general
<@Otter> i still don't know what you mean
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<obli_> we are set up to receive and react to certain subconscious inputs
<obli_> there are things we are sensitive to as part of human nature
<@Otter> humans in general have involutarily made an egregore they call Venus?
<@Otter> obviously
<obli_> its more than just an egregore though... its something that happens in nature... but our collective reaction to it has some effect on its shape
<@Otter> so.... Venus forces us to recieve her knowlege?
<obli_> thinking out loud :P
<obli_> more like we are forced to recieve knowledge of her due to our nature
<obli_> well... most people... i'm willing to speculate there are people who are autistic to these things
<obli_> not huge amounts though
<obli_> alot closer to 1% than 10%
<@Otter> what do you think of satanists using pagan dieties?
<obli_> depends upon the satanist.... mainly on how creative they are.... i'd be pretty against levay using any
<obli_> for example
<obli_> it's pretty pointless i guess to slam a satanist for being too egotistical
<obli_> but i think it takes a certain amount of intuition to understand deity
<@Otter> lol
<obli_> alot of satanists are more about forcing deity into a position of use
<@Otter> satanists tend to be atheists, so i think that most of the time a satanist using the name of a pagan diety isn't really talking about that deity
<obli_> most the time
<obli_> but alot of supposed atheists are pretty spiritual
<@Otter> they're onto something else
<obli_> among the leadership of the current crop of new atheists at any rate
<@Otter> so just like the wiccans with their poly-duo-monotheism, i don't think satanists are talking about the same thing
<obli_> "new atheists"
<obli_> probably not
<@Otter> the same thing as hard polytheists, i mean
<obli_> but generally they're inheriting an intuitive understanding just from the myth and cultural assossiations of thei deity they are invoking
<@Otter> now, if they decide to do a "black mass" mocking a pagan deity, that's their business, but i probably wouldn't lend them any money
<obli_> to a point
<obli_> heh
<obli_> i don't know how that would work
<obli_> theologicly
<obli_> either in paganism or satanism
<obli_> a contrapagan black mass
<@Otter> i've never heard of such a thing, but they seem to assume that our gods are the same as the christian god
<@Otter> so i suppose it's possible
<obli_> i don't think it would matter much to pagans who weren't activly involved ... defying the gods is incipient in the idea of heroism... so in greek paganism at least
<obli_> just acknowledging their existance makes you pagan on some level.... though not necessarily a particularly meaningful one
<obli_> :P
<@Otter> apparently, hard polytheism, specifically devotional hard polytheism, is the latest thing
<@Otter> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergicpagan/2014/02/08/these-arent-the-gods-youre-looking-for/
<obli_> i think hes creating a problem where none exists
<obli_> :P
<obli_> but this is the advantage of working outwards from the woodcraft chivalry material... this problem is desolved there
<@Otter> what problem is he creating?
<@Otter> brb
<obli_> a dichotomy between Algernon Blackwood and Euripides
<obli_> they're both in the biblography of "the place of dionysos" :P
<obli_> along with jung...
<obli_> ]heh]
<@Otter> b
<@Otter> i think the distinction between hard and soft polytheism is valid
<@Otter> his polytheism is pretty soft, and he likes it that way
<@Otter> i don't see that as a problem, though
<obli_> i see hard polytheism as encompassing soft polytheism
<obli_> as in
<obli_> i can get why soft polytheists don't get it
<obli_> but... it doesn't mean hard polytheists don't get soft polytheism
<@Otter> right, but that doesn't mean that we practice soft polytheism
<obli_> yeah
<obli_> basicly hard polytheism requires a rejection of certain metaphysical assumptions that are at play in most forms of soft polytheism i am aware of
<obli_> about universality and oneness and that kind of thing
<@Otter> i think he stuggled ot understand, and his essay will probably be useful to fellow soft polytheists trying to make sense of these freaks who say their gods are individuals
<obli_> harmony
<@Otter> hmmm
<@Otter> i believe that all things, you, me, rocks, trees, the gods, tax collectors, 1973 ford pintos, etc are part of one whole
<@Otter> that it's an inherently harmonious whole, though that harmony isn't always obvious from where we are
<@Otter> and that harmony is worth seeking
<@Otter> so i wonder if i have rejected the things you re talking about
<obli_> yeah... i doubt i will ever find anyone like minded
<@Otter> i don't believe that all gods are one god. that makes about as much sense to me as saying all people are one person
<obli_> i guess on some level metaphysical speculation is a trap we cannot escape
<obli_> but i'm mainly interested in using it as a bridge to the gods... rather than trying to encapsulate the whole universe
<obli_> seeking effect
<@Otter> metaphysical speculation as a bridge to the gods?
<obli_> well if you want to explain their existence metaphysics is pretty unavoidable
<@Otter> i'm not sure how you can avoid it explaining the existence of anything
<obli_> but as far as i can tell i am working from human to deity... rather than trying to explain the whole universe in such a way as the gods will slot neatly in
<obli_> a bottom up approach
<@Otter> i'm not attempting to explain the whole universe, lol
<@Otter> LOL
<@Otter> i simply believe that all things are connected
<@Otter> and that nature, by definition, is all-encompassing
<@Otter> i use art, ritual, and meditaiton to contact the gods
<obli_> heh
<obli_> i don't mean to be accusatory
<obli_> sorry if it came across that way
<@Otter> you didn't
<@Otter> seemed like maybe you were jumping to an erroneous conclusion, though
* Otter shrugs
<obli_> this is just saying what i intuit ... so it may be entirely wrong
<obli_> but
<obli_> it you view it as a harmony,... i feel like theres a big temptation there to be looking more at currents (in the universe) than players (in the universe)
<obli_> creating theogonys
<obli_> looking at the interactions of the gods between each other
<obli_> rather than between man and the gods
<@Otter> i have never given much thought to the relationships between gods beyond considering things like how the familiial relationship between two gods sometimes differs regionally
<@Otter> and what it really means for a one god to be a parent of another
<obli_> heh
<obli_> i dunno
<@Otter> i guess maybe i can see what you're saying, but to understand the relationships among the gods, i'd have to first understand the gods themselves
<@Otter> in a much more complete way than i think i can as a human
<@Otter> maybe someday i'll become one, and then i'll get it
<obli_> if you intuit it.. and say it... then it is what it is.... for example theres clearly a relationship between Athena and Britannia... but trying to make it work for all gods to create and ordered universe seems like a fools errand to me
<@Otter> but as i see it they're the gods partly because they have grown so much more than i have. i can't begin to understand all that they are, much less how they interact
<@Otter> lol
<@Otter> i don't see the universe as being ordered
<@Otter> it is huge, sprawling, complicated, inexplicable from my limited perspective
<@Otter> perhaps even from the perspective of a god
<@Otter> to say that all things are connected doesn't mean that i understand how they all connect
<obli_> the gods are complete unto themselves... but thats an advantage of not possessing a physical body
<obli_> if they were to aquire one (most of them would) destroy it in short order
<@Otter> what do you mean complete unto themselves?
<@Otter> yes, well, don't we all :-_
<@Otter> :-)
<obli_> in vastly shorter order
<obli_> i'd be surprised if it lasted a couple of days :P
<@Otter> <Otter> what do you mean complete unto themselves?
<obli_> like a platonic ideal
<@Otter> are they static, then?
<obli_> thats hard for me to say
<obli_> we can only percieve them how we perceive them... maybe our (collective) perceptions shifts
<obli_> but they are static
<@Otter> as near as i can tell, my gods were once as we are now, and i think they still learn and grow
<@Otter> it could be said that we are the larval form of the gods
<obli_> maybe the part of them that is egregore like allows them to become more refined in some ways as we improve (or degenerate depending on your view i guess)
<obli_> :P
<@Otter> i see egregores as being an entirely different thing from the gods
<obli_> do you think its possible for a human to perceive a god perfectly?
<@Otter> i suppose they might make major contributions to an egregore
<@Otter> i don't think it's possible for a human to percieve anything completely
<@Otter> and if perception is not complete, i'm not sure how it could be said to be perfect
<@Otter> when i ask my gods cosmological and ontological questions, they laugh or show me things i can't grasp
<@Otter> sometimes they do both
<@Otter> but they arne't thought forms or repositories, they are beings
<obli_> i don't necessarily think the nature of all gods is the same
<obli_> some may be static
<@Otter> ah yes
<obli_> some might change
<@Otter> there are many thigns called by that name
<@Otter> i have had one experience with a different sort of god
<@Otter> i am talking aout my gods
<obli_> how was the experience different
<obli_> if i may ask
<@Otter> during a lunar eclipse one winter roughly 15 years ago, i saw dark thread woven through everything, and all the threads together were a goddess
<@Otter> but not the sort of goddess i usually speak of
<@Otter> rather than a being, she was a principle of nature
<@Otter> i'm not sure what else to call her other than "goddess" though
<obli_> are you familiar with the concept of numen?
<@Otter> yes
<obli_> something that has been touched by a god
<@Otter> also means a god making his or her presence known, doesn't it?
<obli_> maybe if could also be when an aspect of deity intrudes into the objective world... manifests its self through nature
<obli_> i think so otter
<@Otter> anyway, were were you going with that?
<obli_> just relating it in my own mind with seeing a goddess in nature i guess
<@Otter> ah
<obli_> i'm making alot of assertions here that i can't academicly support :P
<obli_> like
<obli_> basicly everything i've said this morning
<obli_> as in... i'd have to do alot of research/rereading of stuff to support most of it
<@Otter> LOL
<@Otter> fair enough
<obli_> i don't think i'm just making it up... it's sort of a gut synthesis of what i've read and experienced :P
<@Otter> i rely primarily on my own experience in these matters
<@Otter> what tradition or other authorities have to say can be interesting and useful, but if my experience doesn't support it, it's just words
<@Otter> and when it comes to spiritual things, i can't draw a meaningful line between experience and intuition
<@Otter> even in the everyday world, intuition is an experience
<obli_> some of it hinges on beliefs that i guess are even more foundational to the way i approach life than the structure of paganism
<@Otter> but it's essential to my spiritual perceptions
* Otter nods
<@Otter> it's good to be aware of that
<@Otter> "god" is a wildly polyphyletic category
<obli_> the reasons why i place as much importance as i do on the woodcraft chivalry material
<obli_> beliefs about the value of originality i guess
<obli_> and about centres and boarders :P
<obli_> borders
<@Otter> what are those beliefs?
<obli_> that theres a power in originality... on being the first to think something... before consensus makes it "safe" ... the first people to think things usually leave a bunch of loose ends they can't articulate... which lead to fruitful paths
* Otter nods
<obli_> and it's especially well illustrated in the woodcraft chivalry material... becuase it's so obscure and becuase it contains so much of what paganism became... fully formed... at inception
<obli_> i guess it's the same with centres and borders... especially chronologically... you find out what something really is at times of change... not at times of stasis
posted by Classical Polytheist @ 14:45
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