the conversion of the pagans

[01:53] <obli> heh

[02:09] <obli> i am back

[02:09] <@Otter> b

[02:09] <@Otter> wb

[02:09] <obli> cheers

[02:10] == DruidTroy [DruidTroy@c-50-147-44-57.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]

[02:10] <@Otter> one thing i found interesting about the baptist's talk was to hear an evangelist talk up paganism

[02:10] <@Otter> we don't do that, so it was new

[02:11] == DruidTroy [~Reiki@c-50-147-44-57.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #paganjourney

[02:11] <obli> well it was more

[02:11] <@Otter> i can see how someone with that background promoting paganism would get some "converts"

[02:11] <obli> an assessment of what it actually offers

[02:11] <@Otter> but i'm not at all sure that would be a good thing

[02:11] <@Otter> hi Drew

[02:11] <obli> heh

[02:11] <obli> well

[02:11] == DruidTroy has changed nick to Guest72185

[02:11] <obli> theres that guy in salam

[02:12] <obli> salem

[02:12] <@Otter> yes, but delivered as an evangelist speaks

[02:12] <Tj_inLove> LOL

[02:12] <Tj_inLove> sry wrong window

[02:12] <obli> heh

[02:12] <obli> we should contract him :P

[02:13] <obli> if i won lotto

[02:13] <@Otter> guy in Salem?

[02:13] <obli> reckon he'd take up the cause for a cool mill?

[02:13] <obli> the baptist

[02:13] <@Otter> lol

[02:14] <obli> take him on to develop and deviler some spiritual product

[02:15] <obli> deliver

[02:15] <obli> even

[02:15] <obli> :P

[02:15] <@Otter> we have tons of pagan self-promoters

[02:15] <@Otter> but not much in the way of actual evangelists

[02:15] <@Otter> are the pagan paths that strongly resistant to this?

[02:15] <@Otter> or has it just not happened yet?

[02:16] <obli> well

[02:16] <obli> the need isn't inherantly as great

[02:16] <obli> within the religion

[02:16] <obli> its not about saving souls

[02:16] <obli> in the internal logic of paganism

[02:18] * Otter nods

[02:18] <obli> its more about reforming society

[02:18] <obli> we are out of whack

[02:18] <@Otter> and polytheism has inherent difficulties for anyone saying "THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY"

[02:18] <obli> alien mindstates have warped up

[02:19] <@Otter> up = us?

[02:19] <obli> yes

[02:19] <obli> us

[02:19] <obli> :P

[02:20] <@Otter> i'm still baffled at how our ancestors could accept some of the concepts that came with christianity

[02:20] <obli> well

[02:20] <obli> its complex

[02:20] <obli> partly

[02:21] <obli> its christian (and gnostic) beleifs became incorperatedd into folk beleifs

[02:21] <obli> then christianity can say... abandon all other gods or derive no benifit

[02:21] <@Otter> the whole one god this is the only way believe this or burn in hell for all eternity thing i kindof get

[02:21] <@Otter> they'd never seen anythign like it, and weren't ready for it

[02:21] * Otter nods

[02:21] <@Otter> that i see

[02:21] <obli> partly its from courting the nobility and mass conversions

[02:21] <obli> partly its from the propaganda effects of converting the most mariginal and hopeless

[02:21] <@Otter> but how about this nonsense about sex being bad and women being unclean?

[02:22] <obli> people willing to entirely give their lives to spreading the good news

[02:22] <obli> through charity

[02:22] <obli> and once you have enough christians intimidation and mob violence can do alot of quick work

[02:22] <obli> then you have crusades :P

[02:23] <obli> christianity is horrific

[02:23] <@Otter> none of which were particularly successful.  but there they were against another group of fanatical abrhamites who had the home field advantage

[02:24] <@Otter> yes, horror is a big part of it.  at least in some forms of christianity

[02:24] <obli> i think if you want to understand the best guy to read it Julian

[02:25] <obli> is

[02:25] <obli> Julian

[02:26] <obli> would have been interesting

[02:26] <obli> had he survived

[02:26] <obli> he thought the way foward for paganism was neo-platonism

[02:27] <@Otter> Julian?  as in Julius Ceasar?

[02:27] <obli> as in Julian the apostate

[02:27] <obli> last pagan emperor of rome

[02:28] <obli> after a string of christian ones

[02:28] * Otter nods

[02:28] <obli> anyway

[02:28] <obli> the thing about paganism

[02:28] <obli> is its back now

[02:28] <obli> weather it grows massivly or remains tiny

[02:28] <obli> its not going to disappear

[02:29] <obli> all the more reason to produce beautiful things

[02:29] <obli> to show its potential

[02:31] <obli> :)

[02:32] * Otter nods

[02:33] <@Otter> i was thinking more about why the norse/celtic/germanic people would accept the sex and women are evil concepts

[02:34] <@Otter> the romans arlready had some odd ideas about women

[02:35] <@Otter> but why didn't my gaelic ancestors just laugh and say "go loose your cherry, junior, and then come back and tell me about women"

[02:43] <obli> patriarchy

[02:43] <obli> i guess

[02:43] <obli> to really know

[02:43] <obli> you've have to know why christianity appealled to the celts

[02:43] <obli> since their idea of the afterlife

[02:44] <obli> differed from hades

[02:44] <obli> which gives a clear reason for some of the appeal of christianity to the romans and greeks

[02:44] * Otter nods

[02:44] <obli> a big part of the orphics appeals was survival after death

[02:45] <@Otter> i think that christainity probably gained traction because it came a time when paganism was rather ossified

[02:47] <obli> the role of urbanisation is worth considering

[02:47] <@Otter> this is only speculation, but i can imagine how just about any new cult might be popular if it offered an alternative to a hierarchical tradition that no longer served the people

[02:47] <@Otter> but that's religion

[02:47] <obli> and the fact of the roman empire... the gods of the lands had failed in offering triumph

[02:47] <obli> in the subject states

[02:48] <@Otter> if i'm an ancient celt, german, or norseman, how does a christian evangelist even walk away after insulting my wife?

[02:48] <obli> a numbers game

[02:48] <obli> send everyone with gifts

[02:48] <obli> a few will surivive

[02:48] <obli> :P

[02:49] <obli> or just don't tell them till they're bought your pie in the sky

[02:50] <@Otter> so feeling guilty about sex was the roman thing to do?

[02:50] <@Otter> yeah, they may have saved the best for last

[02:51] <obli> well

[02:51] <@Otter> when i was in college,  a group from the Church of God Militant Gospel Pillar of Truth set up on a lawn they thought was across the street from our campus

[02:51] <obli> life after death and forgiveness for all crimes

[02:51] <@Otter> the college actually owned that house, but i don't think they knew that

[02:51] <obli> no matter how horrifc

[02:51] <obli> probably held some appeal