Every nation has a point in history it pivots around. Its historic ideal. For britian this was the napolioic war. For france their revolution. For america ww2. And for new zealand its the great war this is our model for the ideal new zealander still. And its still an important one. For all his faults it was the anzac trooper who was brithed from the great wave Of reform that swept this country from the end of the 19th century. Who fought and died for the empire with no desire it be turned back (was he aware this was to be the model of the future?) and when he returned he saw in a wave of futhure reform and social justice. For all his faults he is not as problematic as the greatest generation who echoed these reforms in the rest of the civilised world. Whose children reaped the benifits of these things then distroyed them and created the americanised nightmare we live in today.

talking transmedia

<GilliamWaddis> ultimately i think the ideal game is one that's part transmedia, part 'game', where the rules of the game actually communicate something artistically cohesive
<kraed> i don't think there is an ideal game
<oblivion> jagged alliance 2
<kraed> transmedia is an interesting discussion though
<kraed> there doesn't really seem to be much talk or development regarding transmedia
<kraed> and the stuff to come out of it is usually pretty wank
<oblivion> there ARG forums out there
<kraed> oh i know ARGs
<oblivion> which is about as transmedia as it gets
<kraed> i was heavily active in the ARG scene 6 or 7 years ago
<kraed> but
<kraed> really there isn't much to ARGs
<kraed> and ARGs require an awful lot of work from the developer
<kraed> for very little payoff for the player
<EDC> video games are still a new enough medium already, transmedia might as well be post-modern
<kraed> and the vast majority of things you create are going to be enjoyed and appreciated by a very, very tiny amount of the players
<oblivion> i think most ARGs have been very top down
<kraed> (usually just the first people to do them)
<oblivion> which limits vermessalatude
<kraed> like
<oblivion> versimillitude
<kraed> bleh i dunno
<kraed> can you name any really good examples of transmedia?
<kraed> i like the concept of ARGs
<kraed> but i couldn't name one that is worth the time
<oblivion> well most ARGs untill now have been marketing gimicks
<kraed> and i haven't ever seen an ARG with more than a handful of interested players

<kraed> well what else could they be?
<kraed> an arg is a LOT of work
<kraed> without a revenue stream
<kraed> if they aren't marketing something
<kraed> it's basically flushing money down the toilet
<oblivion> the ... gun? red dead?... graveyard poker thing seems like it has potential
<EDC> have you guys heard of HvZ? does that count as what you are talking about?
<EDC> it seems to be gaining some ground, at least in terms of people keep on playing it
<oblivion> HvZ?
<kraed> it wasn't very good oblivion
<EDC> Humans vs Zombies
<kraed> isn't that just a game of tag?
<oblivion> kraed
<EDC> basically, it can be a bit more robust than that, but basically yes
<oblivion> have you heard of the concept of emergant reality games?
<kraed> i thought hvz was just british bulldog with nerf guns
<kraed> i know what emergent gameplay is
<kraed> but i haven't heard the term emergent reality
<EDC> well you can establish special rules and objectives in order to make the gameplay a bit more emergent
<kraed> yeah but there's nothing really transmedia about it edc
<oblivion> edc?
<EDC> ah, I see what you mean
<kraed> it's just
<kraed> picking up some toys
<kraed> and playing with them
<kraed> not much more than kicking around a football or w/e
<kraed> effectively there is no game at all you're just making it up
<EDC> well could a board game count as transmedia if it was designed a certain way?
<kraed> if it's just a board game
<kraed> no
<kraed> because... it's just a board game
<kraed> edc i think you need to go look up transmedia real quick
<EDC> I am trying, but I can't irc and look up stuff at the same time
<oblivion> kraed http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2009/May/24/ln/hawaii905240381.html
<kraed> okay
<oblivion> emergant reality game

<kraed> it's basically the idea of using multiple different platforms and formats etc etc to create the experience
<kraed> so for example
<kraed> dust players on ps3 and EVE online players on pc
<kraed> interact together in the same universe via two different games
<kraed> that is transmedia solely within gaming
<oblivion> serial experiants lain. game and cartoon. both developed at the same time.. tottally diffrent stories neither of which is more cannon than the other... also the book and cd
<EDC> it sounds like a nintendo-esque gimmick to me, where it is defined by an experience not being concretely definable
<oblivion> yeah EDC
<oblivion> its problematic
* bladder_x New reply in FITNESS and GYM: Stanking, Ripping, Being A Body [General Talk] by Evangel > http://saltworld.net/p432897
<oblivion> which is why it isn't super widespread
<kraed> i am not really seeing what this emergent reality thing is in this game
<kraed> it sounds to me like it's just a quiz
<kraed> it's a survey
<kraed> they get peoples answers
<kraed> then give them to people
<kraed> and they act on it
<kraed> i am not seeing the whole "game" part ofit
<oblivion> where reality and ARG merge
<kraed> but where's the game?
<kraed> it's just a survey.
<EDC> plus a game and cartoon developed at the same time are just that, the fact that the stories don't line up, or that there is this thing called 'canon' in the first place is looking too deep into it
<oblivion> its more the potential
<kraed> but the potential for what is what i am asking
<EDC> If the answers to the survey could change the landscape and the rules and objectives involved, maybe that would be a more ideal type of ARG
<oblivion> exciting dangerous things
<kraed> this guy talks about emergent reality but all he offers as an example is people filling out a survey and then people reacting based on the answers to the survey
<EDC> heh, I bet there is an anime that is basically a ripoff of Death Note, except it is an ARG that is killing people instead
<kraed> i am seeing nothing that is like an ARG, nothing that is emergent or w/e
<oblivion> well first you need is a deep well of reality... exciting reality but not commonly known...
* Dudesoft (~dudesoft@184.151.61.57) Quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
<oblivion> like what alex jones and dave icke does :P

<oblivion> reality and madness
<kraed> who?
<oblivion> harnessed for the purpose of arts
<oblivion> david icke
<kraed> oh
<kraed> the crazy reptile dumbass
<oblivion> the queen is a reploid people eater
<oblivion> yer
<EDC> this issue is why I had to ask if HvZ counted, I assumed it wasn't an ARG, but at least it is still a GAME
<kraed> but an ARG isn't just a game where people play it in real life
<EDC> yeah, that is the distinction I was trying to clarify
<EDC> which I am still not getting too clearly
<oblivion> its where the game and real life become hard to distingish
<oblivion> this is not a game
<kraed> yeah
<kraed> for example in an arg
<EDC> technically, video games ARE played in real life, it is a matter of context
<kraed> the people and characters you interact with don't pretend it's a game
<kraed> they behave like they exist in our reality
<kraed> and they has persistence
<kraed> in a game like hvz or w/e
<kraed> it's very clearly just a game
<kraed> you play it
<kraed> then you have a laugh about it or bitch about that guy that keeps cheating and that's it
<kraed> but it's still just a game
<EDC> it sounds like a more immersive version of "its just a game"
<EDC> unless those "characters" are those characters forever, I still fail to see an actual distinction
<kraed> okay to gameify it
<kraed> think of playing mass effect
<kraed> but instead of you picking dialogue option in game
<kraed> you actually pick up your phone
<oblivion> alpha protacol
<kraed> in real life
<kraed> phone a number
<kraed> and tali answers
<kraed> and you ask tali to do something

<kraed> and then tali in the game does that action
<kraed> that's what an ARG is
<EDC> yeeaaahhh, so that is DIFFERENT from a game where you call a role-player using a real phone?
<kraed> i guess it's because the people and characters you interact with art part of the the game and fiction
<kraed> whereas something like hvz
<kraed> it's all entirely players
<EDC> It just seems like in terms of potential and immersion seeking, you could just be satisfied playing a pen and paper RPG
<jamie_> hi edc
<oblivion> i think your could create an ARG that was entirely players... you just need the right players
<kraed> oh here we go
<kraed> this is a better way of putting it
<oblivion> heh
<kraed> in the pnp example or hvz
<jamie_> hi kraed
<jamie_> hi obli
<jamie_> what's the topic now
<oblivion> transmedia
<jamie_> jamie wants to chat
<EDC> well HvZ has coordinators and moderators, if you put them in actual roles that regarded fighting the zombie uprising, would that transform it into more of an ARG?
<kraed> you're pretending to be a fictional character and you're interacting with other people pretending to be fictional characters
<kraed> everyone is the game
<kraed> in an ARG
<kraed> you are yourself
<kraed> you're you
<jamie_> what
<kraed> interacting with the fictional characters
<jamie_> what the fuck are you talking about
<jamie_> oh
<jamie_> augmented reality
<jamie_> that kinda thing?
<oblivion> alternate reality
<kraed> and there's no real persistence to hvz
<kraed> because once a game is over
<kraed> that's it really
<kraed> it's just over

<kraed> you stop playing, and then you stop pretending to be a zombie
<EDC> yeah, that was why I asked about HvZ, because you are playing at fighting zombies, you are not playing at fighting zombies as YOURSELF, or if you get turned into a zombie, you are not a zombie version of YOURSELF
<kraed> that's really what it comes down to
<jamie_> man
<jamie_> i am so grateful for this place
<EDC> persistence though, does that mean every ARG that has ever occured is still happening
<jamie_> and all the ways we know each other
<EDC> they exist just forever even after everyone has forgotten about them?>
<kraed> nah of course not EDC
<jamie_> i've known some of you for like 10 years
<kraed> because eventually they end
<kraed> but they don't reset
<kraed> hvz will reset the narrative every new round
<kraed> an ARG will end eventually
<kraed> but in general it will end in a way to suggest it still happened
<EDC> so an ARG is just a really long irl game, where the medium you are playing on is reality, and you always play the role of yourself
<kraed> like they won't go GAME OVER
<kraed> they will say for example
<jamie_> okay
<kraed> if the arg was to help some aliens leave the planet
<kraed> they would finally leave the planet
<EDC> that only happens once
<jamie_> i'm officially 100% invested in this chat
<kraed> that's how it would end
<jamie_> i've closed all my other chats
<jamie_> lets do this
<kraed> if they end by an arbitrary ruling of "the game is now over" it wasn't a very well crafted arg
<jamie_> what games are you guys playing right now
<kraed> but ARGs as a medium are extremely young and very, very few have existed
<oblivion> what if it never ends
<jamie_> let's do this
<EDC> so it happening only once is the main distinction? I am just looking for an objective basis to define this type of experience.
<kraed> if it never ends it's either extremely good or incredibly frustrating
<jamie_> is anyone playing a game right now?
<jamie_> or within the last 20 minutes?

<kraed> edc: it's more the players get to directly participate in and change the progression of the story and characterrs
<kraed> like in a computer game or even pen and paper
<kraed> you're still bound by the mechanical limitations of the game
<EDC> well that would explain why it is so difficult to set up, with such little payoff
<kraed> right
<kraed> it also explains that other point i made - generally the first people to find something are the only people to experience it
<oblivion> its mostly been a marketing gimmick up to this point
<kraed> say, for example, a clue is hidden in the real world in a library
<oblivion> i love bees
<kraed> only one person will ever find this
<EDC> but that just makes it sound like a pen and paper RPG with a really smart dungeonmaster at the helm
<oblivion> a bit EDC
<oblivion> no combat
<kraed> well add all the elements together edc
<kraed> it's like that yes
<kraed> but it's also a game that attempts to be an extension of reality itself
<EDC> well okay, at least I get the ARG concept at it's core
<kraed> a well crafted ARG will try and justify how it is REAL
<kraed> you know it isn't real
<kraed> but it acts like it is real
<EDC> still do not see it as an experience entirely separate from just playing a game though
<kraed> it's happening in real life, these characters are real people
<jamie_> this is a cool convo
<oblivion> though i guess i love bees had like some kind of hacking game
<kraed> perplex city was an ARG without being a marketing ploy
<kraed> they had an interesting monetisation idea
<EDC> I could try looking that up
<EDC> I want to grasp this concept before a bunch of doctor who fans get together and try making an ARG
<kraed> they created puzzle cards and sold them in shops
<kraed> these were basically exactly what they sound like
<kraed> packs of cards with puzzles on them
<kraed> you buy a pack of cards, get to solve some rad puzzles
<kraed> and the cards sometimes, but not always, related to the game
<kraed> it was more "this is our side monetisation to fund the universe" idea
<kraed> i don't think it worked in the end
<kraed> but it was a nice idea

<EDC> hmm, now I am very interested in the concept of making a card based ARG
<kraed> at the very least
<EDC> like what Yu-Gi-Oh was, but real life canon
<kraed> i got to run around london doing some crazy tasks
<kraed> thanks to perplex city i made random members of the public do crazy things in london
<GilliamWaddis> hi
<oblivion> see
<oblivion> thats the exciting thing about ARGS
<kraed> that's the cool thing ARGs can do
<oblivion> making the world a more interesting place
<oblivion> through the power of ARGs
<EDC> man, I really hope the homestuck fanbase does not catch on to this
<kraed> honk
<EDC> the world would be absolutely RUINED
<kraed> no
<kraed> it would be great
<kraed> because it would put the entire community in one place
<kraed> that we could lock
<kraed> and never let them out
<kraed> actually homestuck is really funny for that
<kraed> because hussie acknowledges how awful the fans are
<EDC> heh, well if I caught onto it, my only objective would be to get every player into a single building
<EDC> and then lock that building
<kraed> and publically ridicules them in the comic
<GilliamWaddis> hi jamie_
<jamie_> hi pal
<jamie_> what's up
<GilliamWaddis> bbl
<jamie_> oh it's you
<jamie_> okay
<jamie_> smell you later pal
<kraed> but yeah edc
<kraed> perplex city had a thing they called the academy games
<kraed> which was like the olympics

<kraed> but instead of sports
<kraed> it was about puzzles, riddles and stuff like that
<kraed> this was setup in the ARG as a thing
<kraed> and then one day they decided to do it for real in london
<kraed> and got a few hundred players to take part in this event sprawling all over london
<oblivion> whats homestuck?
<EDC> oh those crazy brits
<kraed> and it was really good fun!
<kraed> i don't think i've ever experienced anything like it
<EDC> do not ask obli
<EDC> you will be better off
<EDC> I used to want to tell everyone I knew about it, but I got over that REAL fast

<kraed> whats homestuck?
<oblivion> heh
<jamie_> skip the homestuck talk
<kraed> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m76s2chp0Z1qe63qwo1_500.jpg
<jamie_> skip it
* Retrieving #saltw modes...
<kraed> and that's all you need to know
<kraed> that single image is all you need
<EDC> yeah, that guy, that image is just perfect
<kraed> it really is
<kraed> actually
<kraed> homestuck is a great example of an ARG
<GilliamWaddis> im a big homestuckrunner fan.
<kraed> from the perspective of the characters in the comic
<EDC> or an ARWebcomic
<kraed> no not for the readers
<kraed> just the characters
<kraed> sburb is an ARG

OWC summery

Boy Scout's Twin Brother or Ernest goes to Camp 
I'm writing this mainly, or partly for Holly of 4 Quarters Spiral Scouts. We had talked about this a couple times and I had wanted to find the information to back up my story. It is from page 161 in Triumph of the Moon by Ronald Hutton. Anyone who is interested in the cultural history of Paganism should read this book. Okay, here is the story of the Boy Scout's twin borther. 

Scene 1 (Year 1900- place the United States) 
Ernest Thompson was a Canadian who lived in the U.S. He didn't like the fact that so many kids were turning into juvenile deliquents. He believed that kids would turn out better if they were involved in self government, creative play, and were given rewards for positive behavior. In 1900 he started a camp that focused on these things and a love for nature and Indian lore. He lectured across the country on his ideas. He even went to England where in 1902 he met a war hero named Robert Baden-Powell. Powell liked a lot of Ernest's ideas and incorporated them into something he called the Boy Scouts. He acknowledged Ernest's roll as godfather of the movement and Ernest stayed involved for a number of years (1907-1915). 
Curtains close. 

Scene 2 (Place England, Year 1915) 
World War I has broken out. The Boy Scouts become increasingly patriotic, nationalistic and war like. Ernest, a pacifist, doesn't like this direction and breaks with Powell. He nevertheless stays in England. In 1916 a seond organization is formed. Ernest is on the Board. The founder is another Ernest, Ernest Westlake. The organization is called Order of Woodcraft Chivalry. It is a Pagan organization. Curtains close. 

Scene 3 (Flashback Tasmania 1909) 
Although Ernest Westlake was a Christian Quaker, during his tour of Tasmania his ideas begin to change. He begins to explore the old Gods. He especially is interested in Dionysus. When he returns to England he is a changed man. Curtain closes. End to flashback. 

Scene 4 (England 1920 New Forest) 
Westlake buys a mansion with a lot of land in the New Forest area called Sandy Balls. (I'm not making this up). He creates a camp out of it for his Order of Woodcraft Chivalry. He even creates an organization for adult camps that practice naturalism. Pan, Artemis, and Dionysus are the reigning trinity of Deity in both groups. Westlake even takes the title Jack in the Green for his nickname. (Cool nickname). Then one evening in 1922, , he is driving in a fairly new piece of technology, the car, and he crashes. He is killed. Curtain closes. 

Scene 5 (Sandy Balls, New Forest, England, the year 1923) 
Harry Bingham takes over the Woodcraft movement. He is even more a promotor of naturalism, ritual, and the old gods. Many Quakers join the movement because they feel Boy Scouts are too militaristic. This Christian influence creates conflict that goes on for ten years. There is a creative tension betwween Pagan ideas and more Christian ones. Yet the Pagan ideas remain.A journal called the Pine Cone is created, full of Pagan ideas. The symbol is Pan's staff called a thrysos. The gatherings at New Forest are called folkmoots. William Blake is read rather than the bible. Victor Neuberg, a friend of Crowley gets involved with the movement. A high point of Pagan culture within Woodcraft was the year 1928. People were being married in a new way called trothplighting, and being buried near where Westlake was buried in a barrow in the woods at Sandy Balls. Yet the Christian tension continues. Finally, Harry Byngam, who had changed his name to Dion in honor of Dionysus, resigns. The year is 1931. Close curtain. 

Final Scene (New Forest) 
Aubrey, Westlakes son takes over the camp and runs it for the next few years. In 1934 the Christian pressure becomes too great. He sells the mansion and land in New Forest. He moves on to less radical ideas. The Woodcraft organization dwindles in a much more restrained orthodoxy. In the meantime, the Boy Scouts continues to grow and in America takes on a much more Christian persona. Curtain closes. 

Postscript: 
What if Westlake had not been driving a bit too fast in his new car? What if he had lived? Would the folkmoot of New Forest be going still? His creation was the brother of the Boy Scouts and in many ways he is the grandfather of Spiral Scouts today. 

Postscript 2: It is interesting that all this took place in New Forest, long before Gardner did his thing. I wonder what Westlake and Woodcraft's influence on Mr. Gardner was? Could the godfather of the Boy Scouts also be the godfather of Modern Witchcraft?

http://www.4qf.org/smfdiscuspublic/messages/2229/2496.html

Jackingreen60 aol com

on the occult underpinnings of the OWC

barbarosa:
Sethur wrote in Reply 226: "I have no doubt many groups were experimenting with Murray as a practical guide - most notably the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry from 1927-7 but the agenda behind the Lugh corpus is to try to date Trad Craft to before Murray by picking on a local cunning man first noted as such in the 1950's and going 'Aha.  He was one of us!  We predate Murray and Gardner!  We're the real thing, you are't (sic), nah nah neh nah nah!'"

Histrionics aside, Sethur is entitled to his opinions.  The problem is that it is he who contradicts himself about the Pickingill material.

Sethur was the editor of the defunct Aisling magazine which argued that the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry, the Woodcraft Folk, and the Kibbo Kift Kindred were the true progenitors of Gardnerian Wicca.  He explained in his editorial (Aisling No. 8): "A combination of Gareth Medway, Dr Ronald Hutton, Terry Baker and myself have been working for years,... on the origins of Wicca...  Suffice it to say that the origins of Gardnerian Wicca have been fixed with 99% certainty - only certain details may be fuzzy;..." (page 3, Aisling No. 8)

The article Woodcrafting the Art of magic claimed on page 14 of Aisling No. 8: "The Chivalry, like so many groups, split into factions, each of which was carrying out rites at night in the New Forest in 1938 and no doubt into the war itself.  So there is no doubt the New Forest Coven existed after all.  Which one Gardner encountered is difficult to know, and the final stage of investigation will also be the most tedious, which is why I have published now - but I have no doubt that the so-called Pickingill Covens of which the Lugh letters tell were in fact Woodcraft Chivalry or adult Woodcraft Folk groups."

Having relegated the Pickingill Papers to "the dustbins of pagan history", Sethur admits: "Underlying most of this is my conviction that the attempts to 'explain' Gardnerian Craft in the Pickingill Papers obscures their real value as a source of lore from older sources that really do need investigating, many of which Ron Hutton and myself have been working on for a while...  What value there is in the Pickingill Papers is totally obscured by the assault on Gardner.  Future issues of Aisling will look at rural initiatory traditions, including the 18th century groups of doctors and vets who disguised themselves as cunning men in order to win over otherwise distrustful natives, the friendly societies and of course the horse whisperers.  It is entirely possible that the Lugh tradition emanates from such sources who were completely surprised when Gardner went public, and just assumed he had been involved in their groups.  These may well have borrowed material from the Key of Solomon (Cunning Murrell in Hadleigh from around 1820 onwards, certainly did, via the Magus) and thus developed pentagram-based circle working independently."

The Aisling collaborators were determined to prove an alternative origin for Gardnerian Wicca; and, by extension, the entire Witchcraft Revival.  There is no more Gardner warts and all; "Old Gerald" is squeaky clean and not tainted by Crowley and the O.T.O  Sethur wrote a letter to Mike Howard which is a preamble of the contents of the forthcoming Aisling No.9.  Item 6 of this letter claimed: "Far from denigrating Gerald Gardner and Wicca, it is Aisling that has vindicated Gardner's reputation, where both Lugh Liddel and Kelly have called him an untrustworthy liar and a plagiarist, and it is Aisling that has shown an ancestry for Gardnerian Craft that is noble and inspiring, and not from the often witch-hunting, male only 'cunning men' of recent legend."

Item 7 of Sethur's letter to Mike states: "Both myself and Dr Ronald Hutton were privileged to be present at the 75th anniversary firelighting ceremony of the Woodcraft Chivalry, at the place that Dr Hutton described to me as 'possibly the birthplace of Gardnerian Wicca,'... However the confusion between the Woodcraft Folk and the Woodcraft Chivalry did cause doubts, and others, notably 'Leonora James' have heard this mistake made in the past."

A thumbnail sketch of the supposed progenitors of Wicca will not be out of place.  Ernest Thompson Seton purchased some land circa 1900CE and founded a nature reservation.  He impressed local youths with campfire tales about the self-sufficiency and survival skills of those American Indians who lived in the forests and woodlands of the north-eastern states of the USA.  Seton's Woodcraft Scouts organised themselves into "tribes" and in 1917 these scattered "tribes" formed the Woodcraft League of American.  Seton's back to nature movement attracted the attention of two Englishmen: Ernest Westlake and John Hargrave.

Ernest Westlake was raised a Quaker, but became interested in both the Woodcraft movement and Paganism.  Ernest and Aubrey Westlake, a father and son team, founded the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry.  This group emulated the Scout movement based on Seton's "Birch Bark Roll" books.  The Westlakes organised the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry into three grades: wood cubs, woodcraft scouts, and Pathfinders.  The elite core of the Woodcraft Chivalry worked at "Sun Lodge" at Godshill in the New Forest.  For three years in the 1930's Peace Army Camps were conducted at Godshill, "where young unemployed men were involved in something now being seen as Permaculture work." (page 13, Aisling No.8)  The Westlakes approached John Hargrave in 1917 and invited him to join the Order of Woodcrafft Chivalry.  He declined, but agreed to be a member of their guiding council.

John Hargrave rose through the scouting ranks to become Scout Commissioner for Woodcraft and Camping.  His Lonecraft manual is still the definitive text on solo survival for scouts.  He incorporated many of the North American ideas pioneered by Seton into his own groups, Hargrave was associated with both the Social Credit Party and the Kibbo Kift Kindred.  The Woodcraft Folk were initially members of the Kibbo Kift who dissented from Hargrave's political views.

It was stated on page 14 of Aisling No.8 that "Informatoin about the Kift is sketchy."  This is not so.  John L Finlay's classic "Social Credit: the English Origins" provides considerable information about John Hargrave and the Kibbo Kift Kindred.

Hargrave was raised as a Quaker and a pacifist.  He accused the Scout Commissioners of being "militarist" and "imperialistic", and claimed that the scouting movement was being exploited by "the ultrapatriotic forces as an instrument of war."  The scout Hierarchy, in turn, contempuously branded him a socialist, and something of a "Bolshevik."  Hargrave retaliated in 1920 by launching the Kibbo Kift Kindred as an anti-war, outdoor philosphy.  It existed "to act as an intrument of social recognition."  However, Finlay claimed: "The Kindred have one common aim, world unity (page 150).  He further stated that Kibbo Kift was an old Cheshire phrase meaning "proof of great strength." (page 149).  This makes nonsense of the Aisling claim that Kibbo Kift meant "a good chap." Finlay's thorough history of the Social Credit Party discounts most of the Aisling claims.

The Aisling statement "Unlike scouts, each Kifter had to take a Craft name..." is misleading.  The inference is that the Kibbo Kift shared practices with Witchcraft.  Each Kin member adopted the name of an animal or a bird after the manner of the American Indians.  Hargrave's name was White Fox.  He subsequently adopted the "Indian" title Wa-Whaw-Goosh to indicate that he was the paramount chief of the Kibbo Kift Kin.

Hargrave intended to head a movement of national regeneration and looked ahead to a glorious future.  Paradoxically, he would lead England into the brave new world by founding a folk revival.  Hargrave believed that the English could only produce a superior breed by drawing on their Anglo-Saxon roots!

Finlay stressed that the Kibbo Kift Kin was a folk revival.  The philosophy of the Kin owed much to Thoreau on the one hand and the Herbert Spencer on the other.  To achieve this ideal, citizenship and the right to marry would be withheld until the candidate had successfully completed a system of training.  Eugenics and recapitulation were central to the thinking of the Kin.

Nietzsche had influenced both the Kibbo Kift Kin and the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry.  The major premise of the Kin was "the proper function of the individual was to live splendidly."  Hargrave encouraged elitism.  The Kin were the nucleus of a new human strain.  "We were the elite," one ex-member proudly proclaimed.  (Finlay page 151)

Both the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry and the Woodcraft Folk practised forms of recapitulation.  The Soldier of Pan article on page 9 of Aisling No.8 made an oblique reference to recapitulation.  It claimed that Rick's aunt "unbaptised" him.  This incident was misleading because readers were meant to see a witchcraft parallel.  However, this is the initial step in recapitulation.

Westlake and the Kibbo Kift Kin stressed that only a system of child education based upon the theory of recapitulation could reveal Man's true nature, and suggest ways to perfection.  Westlake believed that children had to live through all the stages of mankind before they would appreciate and accept the present state of human evolution.  (Finlay page 149).  This entailed a ritual to remove all social and religious values imposed on the child.  Only then could the mentor guide and monitor the child's spirtual progress.  Finlay claimed that Westlake believed "that until instinct was recognised and fitted into a scheme of education, no lasting improvement in society could be hoped for." (page 149)  Westlake enjoined ecstatic dancing to cast off the restraints of social and cultural conditioning!

The article Woodcrafting the Art of Magic triumphantly concluded: "So far from being the invention of a retired plantation manager, Wicca emerges as the inheritor of the first Ecological Party in this country, the first to revive Saxon feasts and Shamanism, and so fully deserves its prime place in British Paganism." (page 14, Aisling No.8)

The articles in Aisling No.8 have stripped the modern Craft of any links with the past, "Wicca" supposedly owes its inception to Ernest Thompson Seton, Ernest Westlake and John Hargrave.  It is stated that Gardner's New Forest coven originated with the Woodcraft factions.  Any belief in an historical continuity with traditional witchcraft is quashed once and for all.  The so-called Great Rite is totally meaningless:  there is no "power" that can be passed!

Regards,
Barbarosa

Sethur:
There were indeed errors, minor errors, in the Aisling article, mainly due to the fact that Terry Baker was in the US at an unknown address and I had to remember his research from memory - hence the mistake about the origin of the name "Kibbo Kift". But Barbarosa is wrong to say I contradict myself. The Kibbo Kift were never stated to be the organisation that was directly relevant, the OWC was, and their presence in the New Forest, calling four quarters and worshipping a horned god and moon goddess, while naked, as early as 1923 when Kibbo Kift members were present has been established, as has the fact that the owners of the New Forest property were part of the faction that rejected the abandonment of paganism in 1927 - though they allowed the "orthodox" faction to use the property - and still do.
However, none of this disassociates Gardner from Crowley, since we know they didn't meet until after WWII, when Crowley was on his last legs and Gardner had already been conversing with Ross Nichols about forming a new earth-based religious movement. What Gardner needed was wording to flesh out the basic ritual structures he had learned, and Crowley initially supplied that second-hand, Gardner lifting what he needed from material he now had - and to a certain extent had permission to use.
Meanwhile, it is not Ernest Westlake who is the interesting character here, it was his son Aubrey, and in 1995 his Grandson Martin, who retained the New Forest property. Aubrey wanted the rites to continue and was there in the New Forest during the time of the "coven" that Rolla Nordic attended. His library is full of Rosicrucian material so a connection to the Rosicrucian theatre is at least likely, and we also know that both his father and at least one member of the Kibbo Kift knew of the Golden Dawn system - a copy of the degree structure diagram was kept in a Kinlog (forerunner to the Book of Shadows as a diary) that is still around today. So there was a precedent for use of the pentagram in the four quarters already when Gardner got involved.
Unfortunately, the period 1927-1939 is what needs the work - Hargrave had got bogged down in politics. I feel another trip to the New Forest coming on.....

Steve W

taken from http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/index.php?topic=19416.250;wap2

on prohibitions pointing to hidden dieties

<obli> hey otter
<Otter> yes?
<obli> heres a good example of a deep well of crazy
<obli> http://vigilantcitizen.com/vcboards/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=20669
<obli> mad crazyness
<obli> its not the whole shooting thing thats interesting
<obli> its that they recognise some kind of spiritual threat in "somewhere over the rainbow"
<Otter> LOL
<obli> i don't even think its that i want to meditate on the ramblings of these nutters
<Otter> i wonder what people who know the true meaning of the song think it means
<obli> its just the crazyer they get about something innocuous the more they show it has some spiritual power
<Otter> i do share the poster's outrage about the way the "news" media milks things like this for ratings
<Otter> it's disgusting
<obli> powerful enough to be a threat to their god
<obli> yeah
<Otter> judy garland is the antichrist?
<Otter> hmmmm, that would explain some things....
<obli> everyones the antichrist except the christ according to them
<obli> but buddha did the same thing
<obli> he made a big list of games and passtimes not to be engaged in
<obli> clearly theres something there
<Otter> i'm not sure i've ever seen the recreational buddhist "thou shalt not" list
<obli> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_games

<Otter> hmmm, did he say why he wouldn't play those games?
<obli> clearly the exercised some influence against buddhist spiritual precipts
<obli> they

<Otter> and is it at all surpsing that he didn't want to play with toy bows?
<obli> its suprising that he felt the need to put it in a list
<Otter> i think whatever his point was, it's lost lost out of context
<obli> seems clear to me

<obli> theres something about engaging in these games that interfares with buddhism
<obli> some kinds of truth that are harmful to the ability to practice buddhism
<Otter> i suppose you could argue that these, and many other pass times,  engage the mind in the world of illusion

<Otter> toy windmills are truths?
<obli> i imagine these truths interfare with whatever truths buddhism claims to hold
<obli> they may well contain truths
<Otter> ah, so you think this is the buddhist equivalent of black magic for christians?
<obli> a buddhist equivalent
<obli> i'm sure they have many others :P
<obli> its like the meaning of eating meat vs not eating meat... both contain spiritual truths... but you can't have both sets in one human

<obli> its like the meaning of eating meat vs not eating meat... both contain spiritual truths... but you can't have both sets in one human
<Otter> i'm falling asleep
<obli> though that comes down to intention as well... i'm sure playing with a toy windmill doesn't automaticly break your buddhism... though it may reveal to you things that lead to your inability to continue buddhisming

4 elements emergent poem

<oblivion> our bodies contain the 4 elements
<oblivion> wonderful meat
<fabrizio> where is the fire ?
<fabrizio> in the heart ?
<fabrizio> in the eyes ?
<fabrizio> in the brain ?
<fabrizio> ah !

deity and man

<oblivion> humans naturally manifest the will of the gods
<oblivion> imo
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<c35> maybe
<c35> hi guest
<oblivion> or
<oblivion> more accurately
<oblivion> humans contain within them the will of the gods
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<oblivion> maybe not more accurately
<oblivion> maybe as not quite accurate... but in a diffrent way

perfect truth and suffering

<oblivion> heathen_
<oblivion> what is more powerful
<heathen_> oblivion
<oblivion> love or fire
* heathen_ sniffs a word trap
<oblivion> man
<oblivion> why is everyone i talk to so damn paranoid
<oblivion> whats the worst i can do to you
<heathen_> the worst you can do is to take up my time with word gymnastics that either way one goes youre going to twist what is said into an argument
<heathen_>  not terrible but still a  waste of my time
<heathen_> is it paranoid to see a trap and step around it, i think not
<heathen_> make a statement oblivion if you want to engage a discussion
<oblivion> its called a conversation heathen_
<oblivion> heres my problem
<heathen_> can i get in on that?
<oblivion> you are an evasive bastard who won't reveal a single detail about themselves
<heathen_> heh j/k
-Autobot- Your behaviour is inappropriate. Please change your way of chatting.
<oblivion> so why would anyone make statements at you
<heathen_> im not disappointed if you dont like me
<heathen_> like me or not , it doesnt bother me either way
<oblivion> i assumed it didn't matter to you
<oblivion> otherwise you would make an effort to be likeable
<mrpanda> :)
<heathen_> but if you have nothing to say, why invent these word traps just to start an argument?
<oblivion> i'm interested in what people think
<heathen_> thats going to a hard way to go in chat, cause all youre going to get is what people think
<heathen_> you are interested, i misread
<oblivion> what people think is interesting
<heathen_> but you dont engage to find out what people think, you engage to argue
<heathen_> either way i go, fire or love, you are going to take the other position to argue
<oblivion> i'm going to ask why you chose one over the other
<oblivion> if thats your threshold for an arguement then your whole life must be arguements

<heathen_> its an erroneous choice
<heathen_> the choices you pose have no relationship
<oblivion> they are both perfect truths
<heathen_> perfection is you own idea of things
<heathen_> your
<oblivion> that means nothing to me
<heathen_> perfection is your word , it must mean something to you
<oblivion> i ment <heathen_> perfection is you own idea of things
<oblivion> thats whole sentance
<oblivion> that
<heathen_> perfection is something you have imagined, not me
<oblivion> you don't need to imagine it
<heathen_> and perfect truth, thats a full blown fantasy
<oblivion> it is beyond imagination
<oblivion> there are many perfect truths
<heathen_> to your way of thinking i guess
<oblivion> the perfect truth of fire
<oblivion> it is as fire as it can be
<oblivion> you can get no more fire than fire
<heathen_> fire needs you to call it perfect truth? no , that is you wanting to find perfect truth
<oblivion> fires wishes do not concern me
<oblivion> only the truth that it is perfect
<heathen_> perfect truth means you are relying on finding something to make you feel safe or fulfilled. but there is no safety, fulfillment is fantasy
<oblivion> you can tell the truth because it is satisfying
<heathen_> the only truth i have found is the truth of what is in a person heart at any one moment. while i might wonder what is the truth of what is in your heart, all that really matters is that i approach to understand the truth of what is in my heart
<mrpanda> :)
<oblivion> sounds very self focused
<heathen_> no less so that notions of perfect truth
<heathen_> than*
<oblivion> perfect truths
<heathen_> you might dispel the notions of perfect truth, to get to the truth of what is in your own heart

<oblivion> that assumes it's about me
<heathen_> like, why is that agruing has taken the place of relationship in your life?
<oblivion> thats out of nowhere
<oblivion> swinging in on a wild tangent
<oblivion> about some concerns of yours
<oblivion> that sounds dreadfully boring
<oblivion> that sound dreadfully boring
<heathen_> *S*
<heathen_> understand yourself, what is in your own heart, and the rest of the people in the world is a snap
<oblivion> i agree
<oblivion> though i dislike the way you put it
<heathen_> how would you put it?
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<oblivion> some way that doesn't imply peoples humanity is a problem

<heathen_> ignorance is a problem
<heathen_> misunderstanding is a problem
<oblivion> its not solved with sneering and distate
<heathen_> confusion and misery that we make for ourself and the world is a problem
<mrpanda> umm
<oblivion> buddhists and their love of misery
<mrpanda> hehe
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<mrpanda> misery loves company
<oblivion> everything revolves around suffering for you lot
<heathen_> do you see sneering because you look thru an expression of sneering? because there is no sneering in my statement
<oblivion> life isn't about suffering
* mercvrivs (mercvrivs@BE69B9.D22FFE.C3F8BC.AF9E4D) has joined #Buddhism
<oblivion> you can end your suffering whenever your choose
<oblivion> life is about enjoying the earth
<mrpanda> :)
<heathen_> im not buddhist, what i express isnt the continuation of misery but  a suggested door to get out of misery
<heathen_> choice is confusion, and confusion is misery
<oblivion> why is misery such a big part of your life than you have dedicated yourself to escaping it?

* heathen_ sniffs another word trap
<heathen_> there is misery in life, do you deny that?
<oblivion> no
<oblivion> its just not amazingly interesting

more on reconstructionism and general chat

<obli> i am drawn to diana, theres good arguements to be made for the existance of her followers right through to the modern era
<obli> hmm
<RusticSage> Nothing has sticked ever since
<obli> have you looked at discordianism?
<RusticSage> Joke religion? no thanks
<obli> heh
<RusticSage> I might as well worship fucking Chthulhu
<RusticSage> or however you spell that bullshit
<RusticSage> Trust me - I've been down that road a thousand times
<obli> what discordianism?
<RusticSage> I even tried creating my own gods
<RusticSage> Yes
<obli> i find the concept of chthulhu worship interesting
<obli> the idea that if you master it you could be blessed with tottal insanity
<RusticSage> I'm already schitzo - I don't need more of that shit
<obli> i think its a blunt instrument
<obli> even if you succeed it won't help you accomplish as much in the world as dedication to more productive gods could
<RusticSage> I don't even think that you can prove that one set of gods is more powerful/more useful
<RusticSage> To me it's all subjective
<obli> there are many truths
<obli> its up to the indivdual to decide who to dedicate themselves to
<obli> thats why its called polythiesm :P
<@Otter> b
<obli> wb
<@Otter> Kevin, did you have any religious education as a child?
<@Otter> go to church, maybe?
<RusticSage> Yes, I was Catholic
<@Otter> it seems to me you have retained one concept from christianity that is giving you a lot of trouble now
<RusticSage> What is that?
<@Otter> the idea that dogma is essential to any religion or spiritual tradition, and that to practice that tradition, you have to believe all, or at least 90% or so, of the dogma
<@Otter> but in practice, christians don't necessarily do that themselves

<RusticSage> I don't like conflict - any ever time I encounter conflict within a tradition, I'm reminded of how stupid religion is in the first place
<@Otter> forget about trying to "believe" things becuase they are attached to a tradition that attracts you
<@Otter> if you don't believe them, that's fine
<@Otter> really
<RusticSage> I'm not attracted to any tradition - I end up practicing traditions because they have the least amount of things that piss me off + the most amount of things that can benefit me
<RusticSage> I look at religion like employees
<RusticSage> Or houses
<@Otter> can you give an example of one of these conflicts?
<RusticSage> There are too many to name
<@Otter> just one
<RusticSage> Occultism is neat, but I hate anything Jewish, or Judeo-Christian
<@Otter> okay, why is it neat, and why do you hate anything judeo christian?
<RusticSage> I have trouble working with the Kabbalah because, even though it's useful, it's attached to an ugly religion
<RusticSage> or religions
<RusticSage> I can't practice any hermetic/occult tradition because Kabbalah comes from Judaism - even if I worked with a Gnostic version, I would be reminded that a hateful ugly people developed it for the purposes of their intolerant faith
<@Otter> well, i can't blame you there
<@Otter> the closest i can get is the rider-waite tarot deck
<@Otter> how about a conflict in/with a pagan tradition?
<RusticSage> Wicca is watered down Thelemic Paganism - right of the bat, not to mention that it's unhistorical and full of itself
<RusticSage> Most forms of Paganism don't appeal to me, because they are either too eclectic, or not close enough to a particular tradition to be consistent
<@Otter> what do you find positive of useful about wicca?
<RusticSage> simplicity of rituals and festivals
<@Otter> well, those festivals didn't originate in Wicca, and at least some of the rituals did not either
<@Otter> why can't you just celebrate them?
<RusticSage> Wiccan holidays are based on Catholic holidays
* @Otter nods
<@Otter> which are based on pagan holidays
<obli> :P
<RusticSage> A mixture of pagan holidays that don't line up with each other
<RusticSage> I don't like eclecticism, because it promotes conflicts
<RusticSage> The more things you mix, the more problems you run into
<obli> depends on your metaphysical structure

<RusticSage> At the very least, Wicca is a mixture of Celtic, Germanic, and Greco-Roman beliefs - not to mention all the later Eastern ideas thrown in, and the Thelemic/Hermetic subtext
<@Otter> what is the conflict with celebrating the quarter and cross quarter days?
<RusticSage> That's why I started doing recon - I figured I could simplify the conflicts by sticking to a single culture
<@Otter> what is the conflict with celebrating the quarter and cross quarter days?
<RusticSage> In order for me to work with the wheel of the year, I would have to pick a single culture, and modify the names to be of that culture
<@Otter> leave wicca out of it, and just celebrate the season
<RusticSage> a Norse Wheel, a Celtic Wheel, a Greek/Roman Weel
<RusticSage> Wheel*
<RusticSage> I don't like mixing
<@Otter> so your conflict isn't really with the festivals, but with the names?
<RusticSage> names and motifs
<RusticSage> Though, I do have conflicts with the idea of practicing something that really isn't historical
<@Otter> why not just stick to the basic core of the fest?  they're about the changing seasons, and there is more in common across norse, germanic, and celtic culture than not
<@Otter> leave everything else out unless it seems to fit
<@Otter> just say "here i am at the midpoint between the winter solstice and the spring equinox"  think about what that means
<@Otter> meditate
<@Otter> perhaps make contact with your diety
<@Otter> don't worry about naming anything
<@Otter> just experience
<@Otter> ths would be even more simple than the wiccan version, and it *would* be historical
<@Otter> even though it would not be terribly specific
<RusticSage> It doesn't feel authentic
<@Otter> how/why is that?
<RusticSage> Because it's not historically pure
<@Otter> what is impure about it?
<@Otter> i guarantee you, some people did exactly that in all of those cultures in ancient days
<RusticSage> It's new - Wicca/Witchcraft are new ways of approaching old gods
<@Otter> they probalby did a lot of other stuff too
<@Otter> no, it really isn't
<@Otter> YOUR personal approach will be new, but that's a given
<@Otter> each person back when had their own approach too
<RusticSage> Maybe they did, but it stands to reason that it was much different than the norm in Neopaganism today
<@Otter> well yes

<RusticSage> In Ancient Greece they honored all sorts of unusual spirits other than the gods, that had specific purposes in their culture
<RusticSage> Many of their rituals, even among the common people, were complex and specific
<obli> i guess the question it comes down to is it more important to be a pagan or to be an ancient greek
<RusticSage> What we do in more modern pagan traditions, though it's surely in the spirit of older ideas, is not the same
<@Otter> of course not
<@Otter> but you could say the same thing about the paganism of any time
<@Otter> it changed
<@Otter> sometimes dramatically
<RusticSage> I know this consciously, so it's difficult for me to take it seriously. The impulse to be a "true pagan", as ignorant as that might sound, is too strong
<@Otter> what is a true pagan?
<obli> i used to feel like that
<RusticSage> Someone that works within a single cultural tradition/tribe, and doesn't modernize or mix it with other ideas
<obli> then i realised that you are more of a true pagan if you are experiancing the gods than if you are adhareing to some ritual forms that arn't working
<@Otter> the first one by itself is doable, more or less
<@Otter> you still live in this culture, and that has to have some effect
* @Otter nods
<RusticSage> I have always defaulted to cultural purity, because neither a modern/eclectic or traditional technique has yeilded better results. I figured that I might as well do something traditional, so I don't risk offending something
<@Otter> but not modernizing is in direct conflict with any of the ancient traditions
<@Otter> becuase each generation modified and adapted the tradition to fit the needs of the time
<@Otter> at least as long as the tradition lived
<@Otter> i suspect that some time before christianity arrived in the british isles, the native tradition ossified under the control of a strong hierarchy
<@Otter> and that's why the new cult was adopted so readily
<@Otter> paganism was already dead, just as much of modern christianity is dead
<@Otter> Kevin, if the gods would be offended that you ritual wasn't "correct", they aren't worthy of being your gods in the first place
<RusticSage> I think I should stop trying to have a certain type of spirituality - it just causes me mental anguish
<@Otter> give them some credit for having moved beyond anal retentive nitpicking
<RusticSage> I don't want to work with pagan gods as much as I don't want to work christian angels or saints
* @Otter nods
<@Otter> then don't

paganism

<obli> i kind of feel like paganism is the natural religous impulses that arise in a human when it seeks its spiritual meaning in its enviroment
<obli> rather than in trying to deny its enviroment :P
<Otter> that's another possible definition of paganism
<Otter> and it's not inconsistnt with the etymology

ritual and effetivness

<RusticSage> I haven't had any spiritual experiences lately
<@MikeSr> have anything you want to share??
<RusticSage> I feel like a lot of things I have going on with myself are mixed up
<RusticSage> It's difficult to deal with specific things because they seem to affect each other
<@MikeSr> understandable
<@MikeSr> pick one,deal with it,then with the consequences,then move on
<RusticSage> I want to focus of more practical things - both spiritually, emotionally, and physically
<RusticSage> I usually end up staying in my head though
<@MikeSr> the head is a nice hdd
<RusticSage> It's difficult to be deeply mystical in academic traditions
<RusticSage> There is a lot of rigidity in working in a culturally specific manner
<RusticSage> And uncertainty is not really dealt with - it's overlooked
<@MikeSr> or sometimes,set aside for a bit
<RusticSage> To be quite honest, MikeSr: I want the ability to effectively work with states of consciousness and alternate realms
<@MikeSr> practice,study,practice,practice practice
<RusticSage> I have not seen any of that addressed in Hellenismos - they gloss over it in Neoplatonic philosophy, but it's really just abstraction. There are no actual techniques that deal with things like astral travel or trance states
<@MikeSr> just don't get discouraged
<RusticSage> Not to mention that I've heard nothing about how to deal with ghosts or demonic energies - they just tell me to read an academic book that will explain theories, but won't give any actual techniques
<@MikeSr> meditation is a guiding factor
<Guest32610> is there nothing on using mirrors?
<@MikeSr> skrying???
<RusticSage> I've attempted skyring many times - I'm god awful at it
<@MikeSr> (sp???)
<RusticSage> skrying*
<@MikeSr> another thing that takes practice
<RusticSage> I think I might give those neoshamanism books I bought some time ago another chance - neoshamanism is kind of newagey, but I can't deny good techniques
<RusticSage> And in point of fact, I've met just as many radical socialists in Hellenismos as I've met radical hippies in New Age traditions
<@MikeSr> doesn't hurt to redo old points and places
<Guest32610> i think when it comes to getting a spiritual effect whatever works is permissible... its the wholesale plundering of others cultures that is disagreeable
<RusticSage> I agree, Guest32610, but there is a fine line between inspiration and plagiarism

<@MikeSr> Roy was in tonight,said he's going back to natural magick and shamanism.....back to his roots
<Guest32610> yes which is why the futher you are straying from sources that are authentic to what you want to achive the more scientific and stripped down your approach to those methods should be
<Guest32610> just aiming for the effective part
<RusticSage> I think Neoshamanism and even some kinds of Contemporary Witchcraft can be approached more systematically, instead of claiming to be "The Old Religion" or something similar
<Guest32610> well depends what gods you want to work with and your connection to them as to how seriously your claims of "the old religion" should be taken
<Guest32610> imo
<Guest32610> :P
<RusticSage> I don't have a strong connection to a particular pantheon - just personal preferences to certain myths
<Guest32610> why worry about traditions at all then. geniuinely curious
<Guest32610> other than their effectiveness
<RusticSage> Some people feel that they should follow a tradition so they are being more respectful to certain gods/cultures
<Guest32610> thats why when you borrow you should strip things down to just whats effective... as long as its effective and theres nothing extranious... getting a result is more likely to increase your respect than following tradition and getting no result
<RusticSage> True

level design

<krang> Do you guys ever reflect over how one single change in the approach to a game's development process can totally alter the overall feeling of a game?
<krang> Like how an FPS game can feel totally different depending on whether maps are open areas or narrow, linear and tactical?
<oblivion> depends on your development process
<krang> Well not necessarily mine. I'm talking about a game's concept in the general sense
<oblivion> well in that case
<oblivion> not often
<oblivion> unless its a sequal that fucks up what the predessor did right
<krang> Well I mean, compare a Battlefield game to say, Hexen or Half-Life 1/2
<krang> They're quite different in terms of how you explore your surrounding environments
<krang> The latter type of game is more on-rails but allows for detours and alternate routes
<krang> where the point becomes to sort of keep your eyes open for those things
<krang> and in the former case, you're free to roam wherever you want, but it's too overwhelming so you instead choose to just stay in track
<krang> on track*
<krang> the difference i guess is that designers can apply more attention to detail in linear/enclosed levels
<krang> and create more scripted sequences
<krang> and you get the additional gameplay element of looking around for "ways out of the rail" or whatever
<krang> you get what i mean?
<oblivion> i don't think its that its too overwhelming
<oblivion> its that the open areas don't reward exploration
<krang> Maybe overwhelming is the wrong word, but I mean, when you play an FPS game with a totally open map design, do you explore every inch you possibly can?
<krang> Or do you ignore the surroundings and just head for the goal?
<oblivion> played medal of honor european assault?
<krang> I do the latter, but maybe that's just me.

<krang> I haven't!
<oblivion> i think its the best sequal to the origional psx one
<oblivion> it has openish levels with lots of diffrent places to go
<oblivion> all of which have objectives to complete in them
<oblivion> i felt really rail roaded
<oblivion> by
<oblivion> medal of honor
<oblivion> the first pc one
<oblivion> it was just
<oblivion> an attempt to make a shaving privite ryn game
<oblivion> krang
<krang> Well
<krang> I mean, compare an on-rails/linear FPS game (like Half-Life 1/2 or Hexen) to an FPS game with more open-ended map design (like most war shooters). The former type of game has you running through these narrow, tactical levels where you are pretty much enclosed and limited to "the rail", whereas in the latter case you have the option of going anywhere for quite some time before you get some kind of
<krang> artifical restriction.
<krang> And to me, the former type of game gets the benefit of being more stimulating, architecturally interesting and more tactical, as it's easier for designers to conjure up interesting scenarios and scripted sequences given that they only need to focus on "the rail".
<krang> And plus, you get the additional gameplay element of always looking for detours or ways out of the rail or whatever, which I guess is an incentive to explore. Like you always have this feeling of uh.... "Can I get there, on that other side of that fence, or is that just an artificial backdrop?" whereas in the Battlefield-type games you are free to roam anywhere, and therefor become overwhelmed and
<krang>  instead choose to like.. just head for the goal, maybe look around a bit, but mostly stick to the objective and not wander off.
<krang> So I very much prefer the linear type of shooter over open-ended ones
<krang> do you agree or disagree
<oblivion> what do you mean by war shooters
<oblivion> i only play single player games
<oblivion> most war shooters are still pretty rail roaded
<oblivion> and there isn't much incentive to explore in them either
<oblivion> esspecial modern warfare
<oblivion> you are always pushing foward
<krang> Well, I don't know to be honest. I don't want to name any names because I don't know if I'd be right to name them or not
<krang> Maybe Farcry?
<oblivion> becuase enemies constantly respawn

<oblivion> unless you move foward
<oblivion> i think the diffrence between half life or hexen and cod:blops
<krang> oblivion I guess what I'm saying is that I've played a lot of games where I've thought like.. "this map is very open and it looks like i could go just about anywhere. I can see the horizon in just about every direction, there are tons of houses or trees everywhere, and the overall feeling is just overwhelming... so i guess ill just head for my goal"
<oblivion> is the former are more deliberate
<krang> whereas when playing halflife its like
<krang> "this game is pretty narrow, and makes me want to see how much i can explore and if i can get to some weird area that is visible from here"
<krang> you know what i mean?
<oblivion> yes
<oblivion> but i think the style of combat
<oblivion> plays a massive part in it
<oblivion> did you ever get the urge to explore in halo?
<oblivion> me neither
<oblivion> its fun to drive around in vehicles
<oblivion> but its a risk reward thing
<oblivion> and the rewards in the oldschool fps' were great
<oblivion> i think part of it is due to every game now having regentiating health
<oblivion> you arn't always on the look out for health packs
<oblivion> and since you have regenrating health
<oblivion> battles have to feature alot of enemies to be a challange
<oblivion> so if you explore
<oblivion> you risk another challanging battle
<oblivion> for -at best- some ammo
<oblivion> probably less than you used fighting for it
<oblivion> in half life and hexen theres lots of situations where its one tough enemy
<oblivion> or a few very weak ones
<oblivion> and some useful health-weapon-magic powerups
<oblivion> so yeah
<oblivion> i guess krang
<oblivion> i think game design
<oblivion> like most art
<oblivion> is best approached as something holistic
<krang> oblivion: i hear what youre saying, but i dont think it has to do with risk/reward. i think it merely has to do with the fact that when playing an open game, your brain cannot process all the different possibilities. there's no incentive to go in any

direction because every place is equally interesting/uninteresting
<krang> you have 360 ways to go, so why would you waste time walking all the way over to some potentially unintended venue of exploration
<krang> only to reach a dead end or an artificial wall, you know?
<krang> there's just no reason to go explore that group of houses off in the distance
<oblivion> the problem is theres nothing interesting in these open maps
<krang> because you dont know if its just deocration or if the designer intended you to do that
<krang> well you dont know that oblivion
<oblivion> and alot of that is due to the combat
<krang> i know that some designers like to put weapons and stuff in houses off in the distance
<oblivion> you realise it pretty quick
<krang> others dont care and just use them as decoration
<krang> so how can you know?
<oblivion> and the style of combat can dictate it to you off the bat
<oblivion> see
<oblivion> theres 2 open world shooters
<oblivion> that i've played
<oblivion> where i explored
<oblivion> mercenaries
<oblivion> becuase theres things everywhere
<oblivion> 52 war criminals to take in
<oblivion> along with other side quests
<oblivion> and the 4 main factions quests
<oblivion> and fallout 3
<oblivion> becuase theres stuff to find
<krang> Well, I'm not talking about games that are actually open-ended in terms of gameplay
<oblivion> see my problem with farcry
<krang> im talking about straight up point-A-to-point-B FPS games
<oblivion> and i can only talk about farcry one
<krang> where the only difference is map design
<oblivion> is i found the combat to be shite
<oblivion> like
<krang> either the maps are open with the apparent possibility to go anywhere
<krang> or narrow, with the possibility of going nowhere but forward
<oblivion> it wassn't satisfying to be in gunfights
<oblivion> and there didn't seem to be anything interesting off the main paths
<oblivion> so