more on reconstructionism and general chat

<obli> i am drawn to diana, theres good arguements to be made for the existance of her followers right through to the modern era
<obli> hmm
<RusticSage> Nothing has sticked ever since
<obli> have you looked at discordianism?
<RusticSage> Joke religion? no thanks
<obli> heh
<RusticSage> I might as well worship fucking Chthulhu
<RusticSage> or however you spell that bullshit
<RusticSage> Trust me - I've been down that road a thousand times
<obli> what discordianism?
<RusticSage> I even tried creating my own gods
<RusticSage> Yes
<obli> i find the concept of chthulhu worship interesting
<obli> the idea that if you master it you could be blessed with tottal insanity
<RusticSage> I'm already schitzo - I don't need more of that shit
<obli> i think its a blunt instrument
<obli> even if you succeed it won't help you accomplish as much in the world as dedication to more productive gods could
<RusticSage> I don't even think that you can prove that one set of gods is more powerful/more useful
<RusticSage> To me it's all subjective
<obli> there are many truths
<obli> its up to the indivdual to decide who to dedicate themselves to
<obli> thats why its called polythiesm :P
<@Otter> b
<obli> wb
<@Otter> Kevin, did you have any religious education as a child?
<@Otter> go to church, maybe?
<RusticSage> Yes, I was Catholic
<@Otter> it seems to me you have retained one concept from christianity that is giving you a lot of trouble now
<RusticSage> What is that?
<@Otter> the idea that dogma is essential to any religion or spiritual tradition, and that to practice that tradition, you have to believe all, or at least 90% or so, of the dogma
<@Otter> but in practice, christians don't necessarily do that themselves

<RusticSage> I don't like conflict - any ever time I encounter conflict within a tradition, I'm reminded of how stupid religion is in the first place
<@Otter> forget about trying to "believe" things becuase they are attached to a tradition that attracts you
<@Otter> if you don't believe them, that's fine
<@Otter> really
<RusticSage> I'm not attracted to any tradition - I end up practicing traditions because they have the least amount of things that piss me off + the most amount of things that can benefit me
<RusticSage> I look at religion like employees
<RusticSage> Or houses
<@Otter> can you give an example of one of these conflicts?
<RusticSage> There are too many to name
<@Otter> just one
<RusticSage> Occultism is neat, but I hate anything Jewish, or Judeo-Christian
<@Otter> okay, why is it neat, and why do you hate anything judeo christian?
<RusticSage> I have trouble working with the Kabbalah because, even though it's useful, it's attached to an ugly religion
<RusticSage> or religions
<RusticSage> I can't practice any hermetic/occult tradition because Kabbalah comes from Judaism - even if I worked with a Gnostic version, I would be reminded that a hateful ugly people developed it for the purposes of their intolerant faith
<@Otter> well, i can't blame you there
<@Otter> the closest i can get is the rider-waite tarot deck
<@Otter> how about a conflict in/with a pagan tradition?
<RusticSage> Wicca is watered down Thelemic Paganism - right of the bat, not to mention that it's unhistorical and full of itself
<RusticSage> Most forms of Paganism don't appeal to me, because they are either too eclectic, or not close enough to a particular tradition to be consistent
<@Otter> what do you find positive of useful about wicca?
<RusticSage> simplicity of rituals and festivals
<@Otter> well, those festivals didn't originate in Wicca, and at least some of the rituals did not either
<@Otter> why can't you just celebrate them?
<RusticSage> Wiccan holidays are based on Catholic holidays
* @Otter nods
<@Otter> which are based on pagan holidays
<obli> :P
<RusticSage> A mixture of pagan holidays that don't line up with each other
<RusticSage> I don't like eclecticism, because it promotes conflicts
<RusticSage> The more things you mix, the more problems you run into
<obli> depends on your metaphysical structure

<RusticSage> At the very least, Wicca is a mixture of Celtic, Germanic, and Greco-Roman beliefs - not to mention all the later Eastern ideas thrown in, and the Thelemic/Hermetic subtext
<@Otter> what is the conflict with celebrating the quarter and cross quarter days?
<RusticSage> That's why I started doing recon - I figured I could simplify the conflicts by sticking to a single culture
<@Otter> what is the conflict with celebrating the quarter and cross quarter days?
<RusticSage> In order for me to work with the wheel of the year, I would have to pick a single culture, and modify the names to be of that culture
<@Otter> leave wicca out of it, and just celebrate the season
<RusticSage> a Norse Wheel, a Celtic Wheel, a Greek/Roman Weel
<RusticSage> Wheel*
<RusticSage> I don't like mixing
<@Otter> so your conflict isn't really with the festivals, but with the names?
<RusticSage> names and motifs
<RusticSage> Though, I do have conflicts with the idea of practicing something that really isn't historical
<@Otter> why not just stick to the basic core of the fest?  they're about the changing seasons, and there is more in common across norse, germanic, and celtic culture than not
<@Otter> leave everything else out unless it seems to fit
<@Otter> just say "here i am at the midpoint between the winter solstice and the spring equinox"  think about what that means
<@Otter> meditate
<@Otter> perhaps make contact with your diety
<@Otter> don't worry about naming anything
<@Otter> just experience
<@Otter> ths would be even more simple than the wiccan version, and it *would* be historical
<@Otter> even though it would not be terribly specific
<RusticSage> It doesn't feel authentic
<@Otter> how/why is that?
<RusticSage> Because it's not historically pure
<@Otter> what is impure about it?
<@Otter> i guarantee you, some people did exactly that in all of those cultures in ancient days
<RusticSage> It's new - Wicca/Witchcraft are new ways of approaching old gods
<@Otter> they probalby did a lot of other stuff too
<@Otter> no, it really isn't
<@Otter> YOUR personal approach will be new, but that's a given
<@Otter> each person back when had their own approach too
<RusticSage> Maybe they did, but it stands to reason that it was much different than the norm in Neopaganism today
<@Otter> well yes

<RusticSage> In Ancient Greece they honored all sorts of unusual spirits other than the gods, that had specific purposes in their culture
<RusticSage> Many of their rituals, even among the common people, were complex and specific
<obli> i guess the question it comes down to is it more important to be a pagan or to be an ancient greek
<RusticSage> What we do in more modern pagan traditions, though it's surely in the spirit of older ideas, is not the same
<@Otter> of course not
<@Otter> but you could say the same thing about the paganism of any time
<@Otter> it changed
<@Otter> sometimes dramatically
<RusticSage> I know this consciously, so it's difficult for me to take it seriously. The impulse to be a "true pagan", as ignorant as that might sound, is too strong
<@Otter> what is a true pagan?
<obli> i used to feel like that
<RusticSage> Someone that works within a single cultural tradition/tribe, and doesn't modernize or mix it with other ideas
<obli> then i realised that you are more of a true pagan if you are experiancing the gods than if you are adhareing to some ritual forms that arn't working
<@Otter> the first one by itself is doable, more or less
<@Otter> you still live in this culture, and that has to have some effect
* @Otter nods
<RusticSage> I have always defaulted to cultural purity, because neither a modern/eclectic or traditional technique has yeilded better results. I figured that I might as well do something traditional, so I don't risk offending something
<@Otter> but not modernizing is in direct conflict with any of the ancient traditions
<@Otter> becuase each generation modified and adapted the tradition to fit the needs of the time
<@Otter> at least as long as the tradition lived
<@Otter> i suspect that some time before christianity arrived in the british isles, the native tradition ossified under the control of a strong hierarchy
<@Otter> and that's why the new cult was adopted so readily
<@Otter> paganism was already dead, just as much of modern christianity is dead
<@Otter> Kevin, if the gods would be offended that you ritual wasn't "correct", they aren't worthy of being your gods in the first place
<RusticSage> I think I should stop trying to have a certain type of spirituality - it just causes me mental anguish
<@Otter> give them some credit for having moved beyond anal retentive nitpicking
<RusticSage> I don't want to work with pagan gods as much as I don't want to work christian angels or saints
* @Otter nods
<@Otter> then don't