talking transmedia

<GilliamWaddis> ultimately i think the ideal game is one that's part transmedia, part 'game', where the rules of the game actually communicate something artistically cohesive
<kraed> i don't think there is an ideal game
<oblivion> jagged alliance 2
<kraed> transmedia is an interesting discussion though
<kraed> there doesn't really seem to be much talk or development regarding transmedia
<kraed> and the stuff to come out of it is usually pretty wank
<oblivion> there ARG forums out there
<kraed> oh i know ARGs
<oblivion> which is about as transmedia as it gets
<kraed> i was heavily active in the ARG scene 6 or 7 years ago
<kraed> but
<kraed> really there isn't much to ARGs
<kraed> and ARGs require an awful lot of work from the developer
<kraed> for very little payoff for the player
<EDC> video games are still a new enough medium already, transmedia might as well be post-modern
<kraed> and the vast majority of things you create are going to be enjoyed and appreciated by a very, very tiny amount of the players
<oblivion> i think most ARGs have been very top down
<kraed> (usually just the first people to do them)
<oblivion> which limits vermessalatude
<kraed> like
<oblivion> versimillitude
<kraed> bleh i dunno
<kraed> can you name any really good examples of transmedia?
<kraed> i like the concept of ARGs
<kraed> but i couldn't name one that is worth the time
<oblivion> well most ARGs untill now have been marketing gimicks
<kraed> and i haven't ever seen an ARG with more than a handful of interested players

<kraed> well what else could they be?
<kraed> an arg is a LOT of work
<kraed> without a revenue stream
<kraed> if they aren't marketing something
<kraed> it's basically flushing money down the toilet
<oblivion> the ... gun? red dead?... graveyard poker thing seems like it has potential
<EDC> have you guys heard of HvZ? does that count as what you are talking about?
<EDC> it seems to be gaining some ground, at least in terms of people keep on playing it
<oblivion> HvZ?
<kraed> it wasn't very good oblivion
<EDC> Humans vs Zombies
<kraed> isn't that just a game of tag?
<oblivion> kraed
<EDC> basically, it can be a bit more robust than that, but basically yes
<oblivion> have you heard of the concept of emergant reality games?
<kraed> i thought hvz was just british bulldog with nerf guns
<kraed> i know what emergent gameplay is
<kraed> but i haven't heard the term emergent reality
<EDC> well you can establish special rules and objectives in order to make the gameplay a bit more emergent
<kraed> yeah but there's nothing really transmedia about it edc
<oblivion> edc?
<EDC> ah, I see what you mean
<kraed> it's just
<kraed> picking up some toys
<kraed> and playing with them
<kraed> not much more than kicking around a football or w/e
<kraed> effectively there is no game at all you're just making it up
<EDC> well could a board game count as transmedia if it was designed a certain way?
<kraed> if it's just a board game
<kraed> no
<kraed> because... it's just a board game
<kraed> edc i think you need to go look up transmedia real quick
<EDC> I am trying, but I can't irc and look up stuff at the same time
<oblivion> kraed http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2009/May/24/ln/hawaii905240381.html
<kraed> okay
<oblivion> emergant reality game

<kraed> it's basically the idea of using multiple different platforms and formats etc etc to create the experience
<kraed> so for example
<kraed> dust players on ps3 and EVE online players on pc
<kraed> interact together in the same universe via two different games
<kraed> that is transmedia solely within gaming
<oblivion> serial experiants lain. game and cartoon. both developed at the same time.. tottally diffrent stories neither of which is more cannon than the other... also the book and cd
<EDC> it sounds like a nintendo-esque gimmick to me, where it is defined by an experience not being concretely definable
<oblivion> yeah EDC
<oblivion> its problematic
* bladder_x New reply in FITNESS and GYM: Stanking, Ripping, Being A Body [General Talk] by Evangel > http://saltworld.net/p432897
<oblivion> which is why it isn't super widespread
<kraed> i am not really seeing what this emergent reality thing is in this game
<kraed> it sounds to me like it's just a quiz
<kraed> it's a survey
<kraed> they get peoples answers
<kraed> then give them to people
<kraed> and they act on it
<kraed> i am not seeing the whole "game" part ofit
<oblivion> where reality and ARG merge
<kraed> but where's the game?
<kraed> it's just a survey.
<EDC> plus a game and cartoon developed at the same time are just that, the fact that the stories don't line up, or that there is this thing called 'canon' in the first place is looking too deep into it
<oblivion> its more the potential
<kraed> but the potential for what is what i am asking
<EDC> If the answers to the survey could change the landscape and the rules and objectives involved, maybe that would be a more ideal type of ARG
<oblivion> exciting dangerous things
<kraed> this guy talks about emergent reality but all he offers as an example is people filling out a survey and then people reacting based on the answers to the survey
<EDC> heh, I bet there is an anime that is basically a ripoff of Death Note, except it is an ARG that is killing people instead
<kraed> i am seeing nothing that is like an ARG, nothing that is emergent or w/e
<oblivion> well first you need is a deep well of reality... exciting reality but not commonly known...
* Dudesoft (~dudesoft@184.151.61.57) Quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
<oblivion> like what alex jones and dave icke does :P

<oblivion> reality and madness
<kraed> who?
<oblivion> harnessed for the purpose of arts
<oblivion> david icke
<kraed> oh
<kraed> the crazy reptile dumbass
<oblivion> the queen is a reploid people eater
<oblivion> yer
<EDC> this issue is why I had to ask if HvZ counted, I assumed it wasn't an ARG, but at least it is still a GAME
<kraed> but an ARG isn't just a game where people play it in real life
<EDC> yeah, that is the distinction I was trying to clarify
<EDC> which I am still not getting too clearly
<oblivion> its where the game and real life become hard to distingish
<oblivion> this is not a game
<kraed> yeah
<kraed> for example in an arg
<EDC> technically, video games ARE played in real life, it is a matter of context
<kraed> the people and characters you interact with don't pretend it's a game
<kraed> they behave like they exist in our reality
<kraed> and they has persistence
<kraed> in a game like hvz or w/e
<kraed> it's very clearly just a game
<kraed> you play it
<kraed> then you have a laugh about it or bitch about that guy that keeps cheating and that's it
<kraed> but it's still just a game
<EDC> it sounds like a more immersive version of "its just a game"
<EDC> unless those "characters" are those characters forever, I still fail to see an actual distinction
<kraed> okay to gameify it
<kraed> think of playing mass effect
<kraed> but instead of you picking dialogue option in game
<kraed> you actually pick up your phone
<oblivion> alpha protacol
<kraed> in real life
<kraed> phone a number
<kraed> and tali answers
<kraed> and you ask tali to do something

<kraed> and then tali in the game does that action
<kraed> that's what an ARG is
<EDC> yeeaaahhh, so that is DIFFERENT from a game where you call a role-player using a real phone?
<kraed> i guess it's because the people and characters you interact with art part of the the game and fiction
<kraed> whereas something like hvz
<kraed> it's all entirely players
<EDC> It just seems like in terms of potential and immersion seeking, you could just be satisfied playing a pen and paper RPG
<jamie_> hi edc
<oblivion> i think your could create an ARG that was entirely players... you just need the right players
<kraed> oh here we go
<kraed> this is a better way of putting it
<oblivion> heh
<kraed> in the pnp example or hvz
<jamie_> hi kraed
<jamie_> hi obli
<jamie_> what's the topic now
<oblivion> transmedia
<jamie_> jamie wants to chat
<EDC> well HvZ has coordinators and moderators, if you put them in actual roles that regarded fighting the zombie uprising, would that transform it into more of an ARG?
<kraed> you're pretending to be a fictional character and you're interacting with other people pretending to be fictional characters
<kraed> everyone is the game
<kraed> in an ARG
<kraed> you are yourself
<kraed> you're you
<jamie_> what
<kraed> interacting with the fictional characters
<jamie_> what the fuck are you talking about
<jamie_> oh
<jamie_> augmented reality
<jamie_> that kinda thing?
<oblivion> alternate reality
<kraed> and there's no real persistence to hvz
<kraed> because once a game is over
<kraed> that's it really
<kraed> it's just over

<kraed> you stop playing, and then you stop pretending to be a zombie
<EDC> yeah, that was why I asked about HvZ, because you are playing at fighting zombies, you are not playing at fighting zombies as YOURSELF, or if you get turned into a zombie, you are not a zombie version of YOURSELF
<kraed> that's really what it comes down to
<jamie_> man
<jamie_> i am so grateful for this place
<EDC> persistence though, does that mean every ARG that has ever occured is still happening
<jamie_> and all the ways we know each other
<EDC> they exist just forever even after everyone has forgotten about them?>
<kraed> nah of course not EDC
<jamie_> i've known some of you for like 10 years
<kraed> because eventually they end
<kraed> but they don't reset
<kraed> hvz will reset the narrative every new round
<kraed> an ARG will end eventually
<kraed> but in general it will end in a way to suggest it still happened
<EDC> so an ARG is just a really long irl game, where the medium you are playing on is reality, and you always play the role of yourself
<kraed> like they won't go GAME OVER
<kraed> they will say for example
<jamie_> okay
<kraed> if the arg was to help some aliens leave the planet
<kraed> they would finally leave the planet
<EDC> that only happens once
<jamie_> i'm officially 100% invested in this chat
<kraed> that's how it would end
<jamie_> i've closed all my other chats
<jamie_> lets do this
<kraed> if they end by an arbitrary ruling of "the game is now over" it wasn't a very well crafted arg
<jamie_> what games are you guys playing right now
<kraed> but ARGs as a medium are extremely young and very, very few have existed
<oblivion> what if it never ends
<jamie_> let's do this
<EDC> so it happening only once is the main distinction? I am just looking for an objective basis to define this type of experience.
<kraed> if it never ends it's either extremely good or incredibly frustrating
<jamie_> is anyone playing a game right now?
<jamie_> or within the last 20 minutes?

<kraed> edc: it's more the players get to directly participate in and change the progression of the story and characterrs
<kraed> like in a computer game or even pen and paper
<kraed> you're still bound by the mechanical limitations of the game
<EDC> well that would explain why it is so difficult to set up, with such little payoff
<kraed> right
<kraed> it also explains that other point i made - generally the first people to find something are the only people to experience it
<oblivion> its mostly been a marketing gimmick up to this point
<kraed> say, for example, a clue is hidden in the real world in a library
<oblivion> i love bees
<kraed> only one person will ever find this
<EDC> but that just makes it sound like a pen and paper RPG with a really smart dungeonmaster at the helm
<oblivion> a bit EDC
<oblivion> no combat
<kraed> well add all the elements together edc
<kraed> it's like that yes
<kraed> but it's also a game that attempts to be an extension of reality itself
<EDC> well okay, at least I get the ARG concept at it's core
<kraed> a well crafted ARG will try and justify how it is REAL
<kraed> you know it isn't real
<kraed> but it acts like it is real
<EDC> still do not see it as an experience entirely separate from just playing a game though
<kraed> it's happening in real life, these characters are real people
<jamie_> this is a cool convo
<oblivion> though i guess i love bees had like some kind of hacking game
<kraed> perplex city was an ARG without being a marketing ploy
<kraed> they had an interesting monetisation idea
<EDC> I could try looking that up
<EDC> I want to grasp this concept before a bunch of doctor who fans get together and try making an ARG
<kraed> they created puzzle cards and sold them in shops
<kraed> these were basically exactly what they sound like
<kraed> packs of cards with puzzles on them
<kraed> you buy a pack of cards, get to solve some rad puzzles
<kraed> and the cards sometimes, but not always, related to the game
<kraed> it was more "this is our side monetisation to fund the universe" idea
<kraed> i don't think it worked in the end
<kraed> but it was a nice idea

<EDC> hmm, now I am very interested in the concept of making a card based ARG
<kraed> at the very least
<EDC> like what Yu-Gi-Oh was, but real life canon
<kraed> i got to run around london doing some crazy tasks
<kraed> thanks to perplex city i made random members of the public do crazy things in london
<GilliamWaddis> hi
<oblivion> see
<oblivion> thats the exciting thing about ARGS
<kraed> that's the cool thing ARGs can do
<oblivion> making the world a more interesting place
<oblivion> through the power of ARGs
<EDC> man, I really hope the homestuck fanbase does not catch on to this
<kraed> honk
<EDC> the world would be absolutely RUINED
<kraed> no
<kraed> it would be great
<kraed> because it would put the entire community in one place
<kraed> that we could lock
<kraed> and never let them out
<kraed> actually homestuck is really funny for that
<kraed> because hussie acknowledges how awful the fans are
<EDC> heh, well if I caught onto it, my only objective would be to get every player into a single building
<EDC> and then lock that building
<kraed> and publically ridicules them in the comic
<GilliamWaddis> hi jamie_
<jamie_> hi pal
<jamie_> what's up
<GilliamWaddis> bbl
<jamie_> oh it's you
<jamie_> okay
<jamie_> smell you later pal
<kraed> but yeah edc
<kraed> perplex city had a thing they called the academy games
<kraed> which was like the olympics

<kraed> but instead of sports
<kraed> it was about puzzles, riddles and stuff like that
<kraed> this was setup in the ARG as a thing
<kraed> and then one day they decided to do it for real in london
<kraed> and got a few hundred players to take part in this event sprawling all over london
<oblivion> whats homestuck?
<EDC> oh those crazy brits
<kraed> and it was really good fun!
<kraed> i don't think i've ever experienced anything like it
<EDC> do not ask obli
<EDC> you will be better off
<EDC> I used to want to tell everyone I knew about it, but I got over that REAL fast

<kraed> whats homestuck?
<oblivion> heh
<jamie_> skip the homestuck talk
<kraed> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m76s2chp0Z1qe63qwo1_500.jpg
<jamie_> skip it
* Retrieving #saltw modes...
<kraed> and that's all you need to know
<kraed> that single image is all you need
<EDC> yeah, that guy, that image is just perfect
<kraed> it really is
<kraed> actually
<kraed> homestuck is a great example of an ARG
<GilliamWaddis> im a big homestuckrunner fan.
<kraed> from the perspective of the characters in the comic
<EDC> or an ARWebcomic
<kraed> no not for the readers
<kraed> just the characters
<kraed> sburb is an ARG