non combat statistics in crpgs and the mystery of heavy rain (also thoughts on hub worlds)

3:16] <RPG> the problem with adventure games is that every puzzle has one solution

[03:16] <RPG> and most of them don't make sense

[03:16] <kcuf> not

[03:16] <RPG> except to the designer

[03:16] <kcuf> quest for glory

[03:16] <kcuf> did you ever playe dlasty exprees?

[03:16] <kcuf> last express

[03:16] <RPG> i heard about it

[03:16] <RPG> didn't play it

[03:17] <kcuf> me either

[03:17] <kcuf> :P

[03:17] <kcuf> but yeah

[03:17] <kcuf> quest for glory had more solutions than just 1 solution for some things

[03:17] <kcuf> becuase there were 3 character classes

[03:17] <kcuf> and stats

[03:18] <kcuf> theres a bird that has a ring in its nest

[03:18] <kcuf> you can climb if your climb is good enough

[03:18] <kcuf> or

[03:18] <kcuf> levitate

[03:18] <kcuf> if you are magic

[03:18] <kcuf> or

[03:18] <kcuf> maybe knock it out with something

[03:18] <kcuf> thats speculation though

[03:18] <kcuf> :P

[03:21] <RPG> i don't like stats

[03:22] <RPG> you should always be able to climb it

[03:22] <kcuf> fallout had stats

[03:22] <RPG> didn't make it a better game for it

[03:22] <kcuf> jap rpgs don't have stats

[03:22] <kcuf> yes it did

[03:22] <RPG> having stats like

[03:22] <kcuf> a far better game

[03:22] <RPG> charisma

[03:22] <RPG> that's dumb

[03:22] <kcuf> fuck being able to do everything

[03:22] <kcuf> charisma is pretty fucking important in fallout

[03:22] <kcuf> deterimines convos

[03:22] <RPG> lets just tie it to arbitrary points and leveling up

[03:23] <kcuf> and how many party mems you can have

[03:23] <RPG> stats are for combat

[03:23] <RPG> not climbing a tree

[03:23] <kcuf> man

[03:23] <kcuf> you game is gonna blow :P

[03:23] <kcuf> your

[03:23] <RPG> i have stats

[03:23] <RPG> but they're not stupid numbers

[03:24] <RPG> 50 luck

[03:24] <kcuf> i'd rather have stats and no combat

[03:24] <kcuf> rather than no stats outside of combat

[03:24] <RPG> its arbitrary

[03:24] <RPG> how do you increase climb skill

[03:24] <kcuf> and having stats in combat isn't :P ?

[03:24] <kcuf> by climbing

[03:24] <RPG> kill enough monsters to level up and put points into climb

[03:24] <kcuf> JA2 styles

[03:25] <RPG> well yeah

[03:25] <RPG> that kind of stats is ok

[03:25] <RPG> but it's not what fallout did

[03:25] <kcuf> becuase fallout is gurps

[03:25] <kcuf> and i'm fine with that

[03:25] <RPG> if you actually climb

[03:25] <RPG> and get climb poionts

[03:25] <RPG> thats ok

[03:25] <kcuf> i think pnp rpgs are better than crpgs

[03:25] <kcuf> becuase they are

[03:26] <RPG> i hated fallout 3 the most

[03:26] <RPG> they had dialogue like

[03:26] <kcuf> well

[03:26] <RPG> 30% chance of success

[03:26] <RPG> what's up with that

[03:26] <kcuf> fallout 3 is a pile of shit

[03:26] <RPG> who designs that

[03:26] <kcuf> it's not really revilent to this conversation

[03:26] <RPG> well yeah

[03:26] <RPG> nv is a bit better about it

[03:26] <kcuf> what does nv do

[03:27] <RPG> [charisma 50] give me all your money

[03:27] <kcuf> bleh

[03:27] <kcuf> i don't like that at all

[03:27] <RPG> i don't

[03:27] <RPG> but it's better than

[03:27] <kcuf> thats just putting hurdles in front of you

[03:27] <RPG> % chance of success

[03:27] <kcuf> might as well play some bullshit mmo

[03:27] <RPG> i wouldn't show a dialogue you don't have access to

[03:27] <kcuf> grind grind grind

---

[03:27] <RPG> it's a big part of my game

[03:28] <RPG> that a lot of dialogue you don't have access to unless you meet criteria

[03:28] <kcuf> thats better

[03:28] <RPG> but there are always at least 2 or 3 options for everyone

[03:28] <kcuf> i would say its not my prefured method

[03:28] <RPG> what's your prefured method

[03:28] <kcuf> but i guess its how inteligence played into the conversations in fallout/arcanum

[03:29] <kcuf> roll off but don't tell people their chance of success

[03:29] <RPG> what matters is that even if you fail you still get an interesting experience

[03:29] <RPG> not like

[03:29] <RPG> try to go peaceful and fail then they shoot at you

[03:29] <RPG> and there's no way to stop them

[03:29] <kcuf> does fallout 3 do that?

[03:30] <kcuf> like

[03:30] <RPG> yes

[03:30] <RPG> sometimes

[03:30] <kcuf> failing at lyign should have consiquences

[03:30] <kcuf> otherwise why even lie

[03:30] <RPG> it wasn't even lying

[03:30] <RPG> it was normal dialogue

[03:30] <kcuf> pursuasion?

[03:30] <RPG> and they put a stat on it

[03:30] <RPG> yes

[03:31] <RPG> i agree that lying should have consequences

[03:31] <kcuf> i don't mind that.. as long as you make it opaque

[03:31] <RPG> i don't know if it should depend on a roll then

[03:31] <RPG> random chance is always done wrong

[03:31] <RPG> i'd just save in fallout 3

[03:31] <RPG> and reload

[03:31] <RPG> until i got what i want

[03:31] <RPG> because some options had high rewards

[03:32] <kcuf> theres a solo warhammer fantasy roleplaying adventure in a magazine i have... where you overhear 2 theives... you can try to approach them and make a test against your "fellowship" stat

[03:32] <kcuf> if you fail they act friendly then attack you

[03:32] <kcuf> if you pass you can see they are hostile right away

[03:32] <kcuf> so they don't get a free attack

[03:32] <kcuf> :P

[03:32] <RPG> it's ok

[03:32] <RPG> i don't like rolls

[03:33] <kcuf> i don't like bars

[03:33] <RPG> me neither

[03:34] <kcuf> i like building a character... he might be a character who sucks at lying... but thats your fault for not concentrating on charisma

[03:34] <RPG> it's not a meaningful tradeoff between gun accuracy and charisma

[03:34] <kcuf> i don't like the game saying "grind till you hit this level in this stat then you can do what your want"

[03:34] <RPG> charisma and barter and stuff like that should be linked

[03:34] <kcuf> thats coercing you into changing your vision

[03:35] <RPG> maybe the dialogue shouldn't depend on numbers attached to your character but to what your character actually does

[03:35] <kcuf> the problem with that rpg

[03:35] <kcuf> is you invite the fallout 3/ traveler solution

[03:36] <kcuf> where you rollplay through your characters entire life up to the point they begin thier adventure :P

[03:36] <RPG> i still don't buy it, especially charisma

[03:36] <RPG> like

[03:36] <RPG> this guy is good at talking

[03:36] <RPG> and it introduces new dialogue

[03:36] <RPG> it's really silly

[03:37] <RPG> if you say

[03:37] <RPG> this guy is strong

[03:37] <RPG> and he takes more hits

[03:37] <RPG> yeah maybe

[03:37] <kcuf> have you never heard of wit rpg?

[03:37] <RPG> if it was more complex than a simple stat

[03:38] <kcuf> some people are witty

[03:38] <kcuf> some are not

[03:39] <kcuf> :P

[03:39] <RPG> maybe

[03:39] <RPG> i wouldn't use stats in combat either

[03:40] <kcuf> then its not an rpg

[03:40] <RPG> rpgs are lame

[03:40] <kcuf> its just an action game

[03:40] <kcuf> no

[03:40] <kcuf> action games are lame

[03:40] <RPG> kill monsters to increase your charisma

[03:41] <kcuf> kill mosters to get roast turkeys

[03:41] <kcuf> but yeah

[03:41] <kcuf> killing does increase your charisma

[03:41] <RPG> it makes you wittier

[03:41] <kcuf> why do you think serial killers are so popular :P

[03:42] <RPG> gives you a dark sense of humor

[03:42] <RPG> that everyone loves

[03:42] <kcuf> how do you think charles manson got so errodite :P

[03:42] <RPG> idk

[03:42] <kcuf> he didn't even have to kill anyone

[03:42] <RPG> i don't think fallout has good stats in general

[03:42] <kcuf> he just got xp from being in the party

[03:42] <RPG> not that all stats are bad

[03:42] <RPG> your example of JA2 is better

[03:43] <kcuf> ja2 works in ja2

[03:43] <kcuf> becuase ja2 is a war game

[03:43] <kcuf> you have the run of an island

[03:43] <kcuf> and can take as long as you like

[03:43] <RPG> i don't see why you need to live the characters entire life

[03:43] <RPG> i would do

[03:43] <RPG> a test in the beginning of the game

[03:43] <RPG> if you're actually witty

[03:44] <RPG> you should earn it

[03:44] <kcuf> then its not a character is it?

[03:44] <kcuf> its just you

[03:44] <kcuf> why even play an rpg

[03:44] <kcuf> why not play rl

[03:44] <RPG> i play rpgs because i'm a failure in reality

[03:44] <RPG> and i want to be someone who's really good at big guns

[03:44] <RPG> thats my dream

[03:45] <kcuf> thats why rpgs exist

[03:45] <RPG> i don't like rpgs

[03:45] <RPG> i play me in fallout

[03:45] <kcuf> i play a charasmatic thief who shoots people in the eyes

[03:46] <kcuf> alot also comes down to writing

[03:46] <kcuf> esspecially when dialogue is involved

[03:46] <RPG> basically

[03:46] <RPG> take nv

[03:47] <RPG> they show me the stat needed to pass this dialogue test

[03:47] <RPG> i'd rather they didn't show it at all

[03:47] <RPG> if i didn't pass it

[03:47] <RPG> i'd rather not know

[03:47] <RPG> and then talk to someone on irc

[03:47] <RPG> and be surprised that there was such option

[03:47] <RPG> but my character lacked in intelligence

[03:48] <RPG> in my game whenever you make a choice the game autosaves and there is no way to load a game

[03:48] <RPG> but it's a short game

[03:48] <RPG> and you can't die

[03:48] <kcuf> heh

[03:48] <RPG> so i want people to have different experiences

[03:48] <kcuf> did i ever show you think RPG ?

[03:48] <RPG> still enjoy it without knowing what they're missing

[03:48] <kcuf> i thought it was a worthy experiment

[03:48] <RPG> you think?

[03:48] <kcuf> i agree

[03:48] <kcuf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4zkN5YXcU

[03:48]  * bladder_x [Title] CAMAQUEN TRAILER: Singapore-MIT Gambit Game Lab Summer Games 2009 - YouTube

[03:49] <RPG> that's cool

[03:50] <RPG> i liked in

[03:50] <RPG> heavy rain

[03:50] <RPG> you go visit this surgeon

[03:50] <RPG> and i got creeped out so i stole the stuff i wanted and left

[03:50] <kcuf> yeah me too

[03:50] <RPG> and i was talking to someone about the game later

[03:50] <RPG> and they told me about this whole scenario

[03:50] <RPG> if you stay

[03:50] <kcuf> i watched it on youtube

[03:50] <RPG> i didn't think much about it when playing the game

[03:50] <RPG> that was cool

[03:51] <kcuf> yeah

[03:51] <kcuf> i think

[03:51] <RPG> you can't do that kind of thing in fallout obviously

[03:51] <kcuf> the first 2and a half chapters of fareinheight evoked that spirit as well

[03:51] <kcuf> then it went to shit :P

[03:51] <RPG> yeah

[03:51] <kcuf> in fallout 3 you can't

[03:51] <RPG> well heavy rain isn't that good

[03:51] <kcuf> i fallout 1 and 2

[03:51] <RPG> it's good sometimes

[03:52] <kcuf> you can just kill everyone :P

[03:52] <kcuf> yeah i dunno

[03:52] <RPG> you can in nv

[03:52] <RPG> you didn't play nv?

[03:52] <kcuf> i enjoyed heavy rain

[03:52] <RPG> it's not bad

[03:52] <RPG> the writing is good

[03:52] <RPG> nv

[03:52] <kcuf> but that bit... and the early chapters of the detective

[03:52] <kcuf> are the only ones with that feeling of freedom

[03:53] <kcuf> i played nv a bit

[03:53] <RPG> yeah

[03:53] <kcuf> got to the outskirts of vegas

[03:53] <RPG> i actually liked when you take care of your kid

[03:53] <RPG> it's dumb but

[03:53] <RPG> it's something only a game would do

[03:53] <kcuf> it was alot better than fallout 3

[03:53] <RPG> you would never see that dumb stuff in a movie

[03:53] <RPG> like brushing your teeth

[03:53] <kcuf> but i never felt like i had as much agency as one

[03:53] <kcuf> yeah i liked it as well

[03:54] <kcuf> i liked setting up the office as the fbi guy

[03:54] <kcuf> actually

[03:54] <RPG> yeah

[03:54] <RPG> that's a good example

[03:54] <kcuf> the early fbi stuff as well

[03:54] <kcuf> when you are chasing down those red hearings

[03:54] <RPG> the fbi guy is the only person who died in my playthrough

[03:54] <kcuf> that guy with the walls covered in (crosses?)

[03:54] <RPG> oh

[03:54] <kcuf> he just went insane in mine

[03:54] <RPG> i wonder if i shot him

[03:54] <RPG> I don't remember

[03:55] <kcuf> i shot him

[03:55] <kcuf> shit got too tense

[03:55] <RPG> I think I did

[03:55] <RPG> yeah he got insane in mine

[03:55] <RPG> i don't think he died

[03:55] <RPG> but his nose started bleeding

[03:55] <RPG> while using that virtual reality thing

[03:55] <kcuf> i figured he was going to shoot the cop

[03:55] <kcuf> so i shot him

[03:55] <RPG> yeah and also

[03:55] <kcuf> me too

[03:55] <RPG> because your finger is on the trigger

[03:55] <kcuf> becuase i reloaded

[03:55] <kcuf> and midded a clue

[03:56] <kcuf> missed

[03:56] <RPG> the fbi guy is good

[03:56] <RPG> most of the other characters are not

[03:56] <RPG> like that journalist

[03:56] <RPG> or the later chapters as the dad

[03:56] <RPG> it got too serious and

[03:56] <RPG> as a movie it's not that good anyway

[03:56] <kcuf> the journalist had the docters house

[03:56] <RPG> yeah

[03:57] <RPG> i like the game

[03:57] <RPG> i think they had good ideas but the guy who's making it wants to make a movie too much

[03:57] <kcuf> did you shoot the drug addict?

[03:57] <kcuf> drug dealer

[03:57] <kcuf> :P

[03:57] <RPG> hm

[03:57] <RPG> i don't remember that

[03:57] <kcuf> its like

[03:57] <kcuf> the 3rd task

---

[03:57] <RPG> oh

[03:57] <RPG> i don't think i did

[03:57] <kcuf> me neither

[03:58] <RPG> i still managed to find the kid

[03:58] <kcuf> yeah

[03:58] <RPG> with some missing clues

[03:58] <kcuf> i got the clue i missed

[03:58] <kcuf> during the stripping scene

[03:58] <kcuf> but then you have the poison test

[03:58] <kcuf> and i didn'

[03:58] <RPG> i didn't let her strip...

[03:58] <kcuf> t drink the poison

[03:58] <RPG> hm

[03:58] <RPG> i don't remember if i did

[03:58] <kcuf> and i was like... no thats not how this character would act

[03:58] <RPG> but

[03:59] <kcuf> so i reloaded

[03:59] <RPG> the ending was good

[03:59] <RPG> was it real poison?

[03:59] <kcuf> he would totally drink the poison the way i was playing him

[03:59] <kcuf> no

[03:59] <RPG> i remember the father survives

[03:59] <RPG> not sure if i took the poison

[03:59] <kcuf> but i forgot to pick up a clue when i reloaded

[03:59] <RPG> i think i did

[03:59] <RPG> yeah i thought

[03:59] <RPG> thisi s what he would do

[03:59] <RPG> he wouldn't kill a guy

[03:59] <kcuf> that was the only time i reloaded

[03:59] <RPG> but he'd sacrifice himself

[03:59] <kcuf> i layed it through in one sitting

[03:59] <kcuf> yeah

[03:59] <RPG> i didn't reload

[03:59] <kcuf> played

[04:00] <RPG> me too

[04:00] <RPG> the thing with the bible guy is good

[04:00] <RPG> i can't think of many games that do it

[04:00] <RPG> that kind of stress

[04:00] <kcuf> yeah

[04:00] <kcuf> but it works

[04:01] <kcuf> becuase you know its short

[04:01] <RPG> yeah

[04:01] <kcuf> and you will never replay it

[04:01] <RPG> you know that you can't lose

[04:01] <kcuf> how it turns out is how it turns out

[04:01] <kcuf> i didn't

[04:01] <kcuf> i thought you could die

[04:01] <RPG> well you can lose

[04:01] <RPG> but

[04:01] <kcuf> at all points

[04:01] <RPG> only if all of them die or something

[04:01] <kcuf> i didn't find out untill later

[04:01] <kcuf> fariegnheight didn't hesitate to kill you over lame shit

[04:01] <RPG> well you don't get

[04:01] <RPG> failing => game over

[04:02] <RPG> things just continue

[04:02] <RPG> like

[04:02] <kcuf> yeah

[04:02] <RPG> i killed the bible guy

[04:02] <RPG> i considered reloading

[04:02] <RPG> but

[04:02] <RPG> nothing bad seemed to happen

[04:02] <RPG> i mean

[04:02] <RPG> i knew it was a bad thing

[04:02] <RPG> and i'd pay for it

[04:02] <RPG> but the game continues

[04:02] <kcuf> well...

[04:02] <RPG> is it why the fbi guy goes insane later?

[04:02] <kcuf> i thought he was gonna shoot that cop

[04:03] <RPG> is it based on multiple things?

[04:03] <kcuf> no idea

[04:03] <kcuf> i think its just the VR

[04:03] <RPG> they also asked me

[04:03] <kcuf> he halucinates tanks :P

[04:03] <RPG> who was the bad guyu

[04:03] <RPG> and i said the police chief

[04:03] <RPG> something like that

[04:03] <kcuf> heh

[04:03] <kcuf> becuase i missed that clue

[04:03] <kcuf> the fbi guy couldn't work it out

[04:03] <kcuf> i had an option to ring one person as the journalist

[04:04] <kcuf> so i rang the fbi guy

[04:04] <kcuf> why would you ring the father

[04:04] <kcuf> hes a fuck up

[04:04] <kcuf> hes already got one kid killed

[04:04] <kcuf> in a far less stressful situation

[04:05] <kcuf> anyway

[04:05] <kcuf> i bet you could take this conversation

[04:05] <kcuf> and make a far better game than those kickstarter fucks will make :P

[04:06] <rknol> and die of starvation

[04:06] <RPG> did you see

[04:06] <RPG> the original plan for heavy rain

[04:06] <RPG> it had supernatural elements

[04:06] <RPG> when he blacks out

[04:06] <kcuf> heh

[04:06] <kcuf> did you play fariengheight?

[04:06] <RPG> they also had a back story for the journalist

[04:07] <RPG> yeah

[04:07] <kcuf> yeah

[04:07] <kcuf> good thing they took them out

[04:07] <kcuf> that designer can't handle the supernatural

[04:07] <kcuf> no subtlety

[04:07] <kcuf> the VR worked well for him

[04:07] <kcuf> i think he is less subtle than kojima :P

[04:07] <RPG> yeah

[04:08] <RPG> man

[04:08] <RPG> there is this interview with him and with the guy who made shenmue

[04:08] <RPG> and they ask the heavy rain guy about the game

[04:08] <RPG> he gives this long answer

[04:08] <RPG> about experiencing the game as art and all that crap

[04:08] <kcuf> see i think SUDA 51... for all his bombast... is alot smarter about these things

[04:08] <RPG> and they ask the shenmue guy and he says "i wanted to make a good arcade game"

[04:08] <kcuf> i think its drives alot of these... games that are bad on purpose

[04:08] <RPG> and that's it

[04:08] <RPG> it's pretty funny

[04:09] <kcuf> heh

[04:09] <RPG> i watched chainsaw lolipop

[04:09] <RPG> it was pretty good

[04:09] <kcuf> i wonder how shenmue compared to rent a hero 2

[04:09] <RPG> on youtube

[04:09] <kcuf> compares

[04:09] <kcuf> hmm

[04:09] <RPG> did you play deadly premonition

[04:09] <kcuf> you ever heard of michagan?

[04:09] <kcuf> no

[04:10] <RPG> the twin peaks game

[04:10] <kcuf> i really want to

[04:10] <RPG> no

[04:10] <kcuf> one day

[04:10] <kcuf> no spoilers

[04:10] <RPG> it's coming out for pc

[04:10] <kcuf> awesome

[04:10] <RPG> i haven't played it

[04:10] <RPG> i watched it on youtube

[04:10] <kcuf> i watched a couple of cut scenes

[04:10] <kcuf> looks good

[04:10] <kcuf> wanna play that game

[04:10] <RPG> i like that

[04:10] <RPG> npcs have schedules

[04:10] <kcuf> heh

[04:10] <RPG> and you can peek through windows

[04:10] <RPG> and see them doing weird things

[04:10] <kcuf> and never wash

[04:10] <RPG> or cheating on their spouses

[04:10] <RPG> etc.

[04:11] <RPG> a lot of little touches like that

[04:11] <RPG> the zombie part was forced on them

[04:11] <kcuf> michagan was a ps2 survival horror by Sudas company

[04:11] <kcuf> you play as a news camera man

[04:12] <kcuf> and everything takes place through the camera lens

[04:12] <RPG> did suda make it?

[04:12] <kcuf> theres a variaty of reporters and they can die and be replaced if you fuck up

[04:13] <kcuf> Michigan: Report from Hell, released as Michigan in Japan, is a survival horror game developed by Grasshopper Manufacture and published by Spike. Directed by Akira Ueda and planned by Goichi Suda

[04:13] <kcuf> so i guess

[04:13] <kcuf> he wrote the design doc

[04:13] <RPG> did you play sweet home on nes

[04:13] <kcuf> or however game development works in japan

[04:13] <kcuf> yes

[04:13] <RPG> every character has an ability

[04:13] <RPG> and they die

[04:13] <RPG> it's good

[04:13] <kcuf> i like the ambiance

[04:13] <RPG> bad rpg battles

[04:14] <RPG> what about demons souls

[04:14] <RPG> i doubt you'd play it

[04:14] <kcuf> play what?

[04:14] <kcuf> demons soul?

[04:14] <kcuf> s

[04:14] <RPG> demons souls

[04:14] <kcuf> demons souls is great

[04:15] <kcuf> ripping of fighting fantasy hard :P

[04:15] <RPG> there is a character you find in a jail cell and you can let him out

[04:15] <RPG> i let him out and then

[04:15] <RPG> he creeped me so i pushed him off the cliff

[04:15] <RPG> and took his armor

[04:15] <RPG> then i was reading online

[04:15] <kcuf> heh

[04:15] <RPG> and if you don't kill him

[04:15] <RPG> he starts killing other npcs

[04:15] <RPG> one by one

[04:15] <kcuf> did

[04:15] <kcuf> you play online?

[04:15] <RPG> that's good

[04:15] <RPG> yeah

[04:15] <RPG> i got stuck eventually

[04:15] <kcuf> no one left a warning?

[04:15] <RPG> hm

[04:16] <RPG> i think it was offline at the time

[04:16] <RPG> well

[04:16] <RPG> he just leaves his cell

[04:16] <RPG> and doesn't even say thanks

[04:16] <RPG> idk

[04:16] <RPG> he was creepy

[04:16] <RPG> so i just killed him

[04:16] <kcuf> heh

[04:16] <RPG> i didn't even fight him

[04:16] <RPG> i was thinking

---

[04:16] <RPG> what if i hit him

[04:16] <RPG> and he fell off a cliff

[04:16] <RPG> because most good npcs if you hit them they ignore the first hit

[04:16] <RPG> they just warn you

[04:17] <kcuf> i never go that far

[04:17] <kcuf> i didn't even beat the first wold

[04:17] <kcuf> world

[04:17] <RPG> i didn't beat it because

[04:17] <RPG> i'm bad at games

[04:17] <kcuf> i only had it 2 days

[04:17] <RPG> it's not that hard though

[04:17] <RPG> it's not like

[04:17] <RPG> unfair

[04:17] <kcuf> yeah

[04:17] <kcuf> its a good game

[04:17] <RPG> i want to play dark souls

[04:17] <kcuf> one of the best of that generation

[04:17] <RPG> one day

[04:17] <kcuf> i don't rate dark souls

[04:18] <kcuf> can't your pc handle it?

[04:18] <RPG> it can but

[04:18] <kcuf> i think

[04:18] <RPG> they had it on steam for cheap

[04:18] <RPG> but it's not available in my country

[04:18] <kcuf> demons sould has a soul reaver feeling

[04:18] <kcuf> but in a good way

[04:18] <RPG> stupid windows market shit

[04:18] <kcuf> dark souls is alot more linier

[04:18] <RPG> i could pirate it i guess

[04:18] <Dajhail> Could someone not gift you a copy?

[04:18] <kcuf> from what i played

[04:18] <RPG> i don't know

[04:18] <RPG> demons souls was good

[04:19] <RPG> the world is interesting

[04:19] <kcuf> i like the who hub world thing

[04:19] <RPG> people write funny comments

[04:19] <RPG> "jump here"

[04:19] <kcuf> i think hub worlds tend to work best when they are pretty metaphysical

[04:19] <RPG> and it's a fall to your death

[04:19] <RPG> but sometimes there is a hidden path

[04:19] <kcuf> like... not "actual" game world locations

[04:20] <kcuf> just some crazy place where a giant tree tells you to do shit :P

[04:20] <RPG> yeah

[04:20] <RPG> well

[04:20] <RPG> i think sotc hub worked well

[04:20] <kcuf> yeah

[04:21] <kcuf> its fairly metaphysical though... or as close as you can get in an "in world" enviroment

[04:21] <kcuf> some temple where you are resurecting a dead girl through the magic of stabbing giant things

[04:22] <RPG> i guess

[04:22] <kcuf> and you mysteriously wake up there after rock monsters spirits enter you

[04:22] <kcuf> its not like... times square :P

[04:23] == skauert [~skauert@host81-152-71-179.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #saltw

[04:23] <RPG> what game has times square as a hub

[04:23] <kcuf> what other games had hubs that worked

[04:23] <kcuf> none RPG

[04:23] <kcuf> becuase it wouldn't work :P

[04:23] <kcuf> psychonauts worked well

[04:23] <kcuf> psychic summer camp

[04:24] <RPG> this is the hub of my game

[04:24] <RPG> http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/79051.htm

[04:24]  * bladder_x [Title] Octopus City Blues- King's Castle scene Icon, Pixel Art, Buddy Icons, Forum Avatars

[04:25] <kcuf> reminds me of meeting the king of the nosfuratu in vampire

[04:25] <RPG> nosfuratu

[04:25] <kcuf> what other games even have a HUB hub

[04:26] <kcuf> like a single hub

[04:26] == Saleop [~Saleop@ip98-166-213-105.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #saltw

[04:26] <RPG> i don't know

[04:26] <RPG> what about fallout's uh

[04:26] <kcuf> the only other one i can think of off hand is fallout...

[04:26] <RPG> that town

[04:26] <kcuf> the hub

[04:26] <kcuf> heh

[04:26] <RPG> lol

[04:26] <RPG> i was thinking of 2

[04:26] <kcuf> it doesn't really have a hub

[04:27] <kcuf> i think thats the product of multiple uncordonated designers

[04:27] <kcuf> like

[04:27] <kcuf> the den could be the hub... new reno could be the hub

[04:27] <kcuf> vault city

[04:27] <RPG> yeah

[04:27] <kcuf> maybe

[04:27] <kcuf> but thats the thing about hubs

[04:27] <RPG> midgar

[04:27] <kcuf> if you have more than one

[04:27] <kcuf> you don't really have any

[04:28] <kcuf> yeah

[04:28] <kcuf> i'd agree with that

[04:28] <kcuf> though you only re enter it once

[04:28] <kcuf> the story pretty much revolves around it

[04:28] <RPG> the rest of the world is boring

[04:28] <RPG> but there isn't any focus on like

[04:28] <kcuf> junion > midger

[04:28] <RPG> junon or gold saucer

[04:28] <RPG> story-wise

[04:28] <kcuf> yeah

[04:29] <RPG> wutai is the worse

[04:29] <RPG> although i liked the turks just chilling out

[04:29] <kcuf> i liked wutai alot

[04:29] <kcuf> its everything good about world maps

[04:29] <kcuf> optional

[04:29] <RPG> it's very generic and disconnected

[04:29] <kcuf> narrative

[04:29] <RPG> well yes

[04:29] <RPG> it has a good story

[04:30] <kcuf> substatinal

[04:30] <RPG> but in a world where you have midgar

[04:30] <RPG> you have generic china town

[04:30] <RPG> what's up with bone town in the north

[04:30] <RPG> that world is so empty

[04:30] <kcuf> city of the ancients?

[04:30] <RPG> no

[04:30] <RPG> there is a town

[04:30] <RPG> with bones

[04:30] <kcuf> in snow?

[04:30] <RPG> and people digging

[04:30] <kcuf> oh

[04:31] <RPG> but there isn't much to do

[04:31] <RPG> not the snow town

[04:31] <kcuf> thats near midger isn't it

[04:31] <RPG> but the same continent

[04:31] <kcuf> i think you can get some special items there

[04:31] <RPG> it's below that weird underwater place

[04:31] <kcuf> that let you access other areas

[04:31] <RPG> maybe

[04:32] <kcuf> definatly

[04:32] <RPG> but yeah midgar is definitely THE hub

[04:32] <kcuf> yeah

[04:32] <RPG> no other ff game had a hub

[04:32] <RPG> maybe ff13 but that was dumb

[04:32] <kcuf> ff8

[04:32] <RPG> hm

[04:32] <RPG> oh yeah

[04:32] <RPG> of course

[04:32] <kcuf> but

[04:32] <kcuf> the world in ff8 is lame

[04:32] <kcuf> and angers me

[04:32] <RPG> it was more like a suikoden castle though

[04:33] <kcuf> and the hub moves

[04:33] <RPG> but a castle you can't do anything in

[04:33] <RPG> other than play cards

[04:33] <kcuf> train on monsters

[04:33] <kcuf> yeah

[04:33] <kcuf> i agree

[04:33] <kcuf> they should have made it a high school sim\

[04:33] <kcuf> but

[04:33] <RPG> i like suikoden castles

[04:33] <RPG> they grow

[04:33] <kcuf> an interesting one

[04:33] <kcuf> and i don't think the japanese are capible of it

[04:34] <RPG> games should have more locations that aren't static towns

[04:34] <kcuf> they have to much baggage with high school sims in games

[04:34] <RPG> persona

[04:34] <kcuf> yeah

[04:34] <kcuf> i like persona

[04:34] <RPG> i didn't like 3

[04:34] <RPG> and didn't play 4

[04:34] <RPG> but i like smt and persona in general

[04:34] <kcuf> but i don't think the high school stuff is amazingly excitingly handled

[04:34] <RPG> i was talking to someone about it

[04:35] <RPG> make a dating sim

[04:35] <kcuf> i kind of want a harry potter rpg ;P

[04:35] <kcuf> done with a similar time format to person

[04:35] <RPG> yeah why not

[04:35] <kcuf> a

[04:35] <RPG> you should

[04:35] <RPG> do some pixel art

[04:35] <RPG> without calling it harry potter

[04:35] <RPG> and put it on kickstarter

[04:36] <RPG> parry hotter

[04:36] <kcuf> i'd just make it game where you play as dumbledore

[04:36] <kcuf> molding young minds

[04:36] <RPG> resolving conflicts

[04:36] <kcuf> stealing off to the village to pick up dudes

[04:37] <kcuf> j k rowling would sue me

[04:37] <kcuf> shes richer than me

[04:37] <kcuf> she would win

[04:37] <RPG> yeah

[04:37] <RPG> shame

[04:38] <RPG> your only lasting legacy will be ratking

[04:38] <RPG> did you see that

[04:38] <RPG> http://martinmanleylifeanddeath.com/home_page

[04:38]  * bladder_x [Title] Martin Manley Life and Death - Home

[04:38] <kcuf> i am making a tree burning cult meditation board that will brainwash people this year RPG

[04:38] <kcuf> thats what art is about

[04:38] <RPG> he buried gold somewhere and put the coordinates for it

[04:38] <RPG> i wonder if someone got it yet

[04:39] <kcuf> heh

[04:39] <kcuf> i will bury my gold with me

[04:39] <kcuf> along with a landmine

[04:39] <kcuf> it will be exciting for my grave robbers

[04:40] <kcuf> or one day my grave will just explode out of the blue

[04:40] <RPG> i bet you would

[04:40] <kcuf> either or

[04:40] <kcuf> i totally would

[04:41] <kcuf> i told someone that once

[04:41] <kcuf> he said it was not very christian

[04:41] <kcuf> i replied neither is grave robbing

[04:41] <kcuf> he said nothing more

[04:41] <RPG> that's true

[04:42] <leafo> i'm a smelly ape

[04:42] <kcuf> take a shower then

[04:42] <kcuf> become a clean ape

[04:42] <kcuf> you have the power

[04:43] <kcuf> almost a poem

[04:43] <kcuf> so close

[04:43] <kcuf> if only i had said

[04:43] <kcuf> then take a shower