paganism and protestantism

obli> what kinds of paganism are popular in france
<Otter> i've heard a fair amount about french druids.
<Otter> popular?  probalby not
<Otter> but they exist
<obli> i think... in countries with a protestant bent... the church doesn't service either "magical" or "folkloric" or even "mystic" values well
<Otter> i don't think i've ever met a french pagan online, but then, i've met very few people from france period
<obli> which allows for a bigger "gap in the market" for occult stores to step in and fill... creating an outlet for occult writings
<Otter> how would you class england?
<obli> i think anglicanism is more attractive to people intersted in at least the folkloric/heritage aspects than most protestant denominations... but i don
<Otter> there is probably something to that.  some of the protestant sects certainly seem to think so, as they're promoting a christian alternative
<obli> 't think i've ever seen an "anglican store"
<obli> i imagine most christian stores in the uk are general protestant and filled largely with american protestant material
<obli> like they are in most english speaking countries
<Otter> hmmm, maybe
<Otter> they seem less interested in church over there, in general
<obli> same here
<obli> even more so
<obli> and in aussie
<obli> but
<obli> theres still christian stores
<obli> but theres no room in them for anything old and cultural that doesn't come from the bible
<Otter> i'm not sure i've ever been in a christian store, so i don't know much about them
<obli> so so irrelivant
<Otter> i've visited a few spiirtual bookshops that included christian material, but they had things for other traditions too
<obli> protestant churches in general exist to impose a christian culture on their followers... they don't have much room for celebrating the culture of the local they are located in
<obli> unless its a protestant store in isreal/palistine i guess
<obli> ;P
<Otter> lol
<Otter> the chuch i grew up with may have been something like that
<Otter> dunno about "imposing"
<obli> catholic stores are alot less hostile to that kind of thing
<Otter> there wasn't much pressure and i don't recall evangelism even being mentioned
<obli> also catholic societies are far less denominational
<Otter> but they did have a very strong hierarchy
<obli> so i imagine it has a chilling effect on any potential pagan movements building
<Otter> local congregation did not choose their pastor, and when the sr pastor retired, and the well-liked jur pastor was transfered, they had no say
<obli> becuase theres no chance of ever being recognized as a legitimate spiritual body of equal standing
<obli> so why ever expand beyond being a working circle/ school?
<Otter> also the caotholic/anglican/episcopalian tradition retains more polytheism
<obli> yes
<obli> but anglicanism is essentually fence sitting
<Otter>  i don't realy think the anglicans are protestant.  the anglican church was formed becuase the king wanted a divorce.
<Otter> it didn't have anything to do with reform
<Otter> well, if you're from england, it's probalby the fence you were born on
<obli> and so while as a church it has (some) of the advantages of catholism (at combating the rise of intrest in the occult), the way its parishinors are marketed too entirely undoes it
<Otter> marketed?
<obli> the religious products presented to them
<obli> in new zealand, there are traditionaly 3 main churches
<Otter> are we talking about parephrenelia?
<obli> yes
<Otter> what's wrong with angican religious goods?
<obli> anglican, presbytarian, and catholic, who all have about the same ammount of members
<obli> in this city (and in many places around the country) there is a chain of protestant oriented stores called "mana"
<Otter> first and last would be pretty similar here.  presbys are pretty much at the eother end of the spectrum, or at least the church in my town seems to be
<obli> they carry alot of american religious paraphrenelia
<obli> they carry almost no catholic stuff
<obli> so there is also a small catholic store here
<obli> that sells catholic idols and candles and so forth
<obli> basicly protestant store owners see anglicans as being part of their spiritual family or what have you... so have no problem carrying items for them
<obli> the same isn't true of catholics
<Otter> hmmm.  so, you can't buy a picture of the pope.  what else would be specifically catholic.  a rosary?
<obli> so basicly if you are an anglican... and serious... you are be going to be confronted with alot of hardline protestant material and very little that hardline protestants regard as suspicious
<obli> crosses with jesus on them Otter
<obli> statues of mary
<Otter> really?
<obli> those little fonts for holy water
<obli> yer
<obli> roseries
<Otter> here some protestant churches have statues of jesus on the cross in their sanctuary
<obli> yeah
<Otter> yeah, holy water seems pretty catholic
<obli> becuase how is the laity going to tell the church its not christian enough
<obli> :P
<obli> a bussiness is at the hands of its customers
<Otter> naturally
<obli> the hardcore protestants who buy tons of christian fire and brimstone books probably won't shop in a store that sells statues of mary
<Otter> but i suspect the just wooden beams vs horror show decision probably has to do with the nature of the message
<obli> where as an anglican doesn't have much choice
<Otter> fire and brimstone types are more likely to go for the gore
<Otter> churches that don't emphasize the crucifiion are more likely to have a simple cross as a symbol of the religion
<Otter> and not call constant attention to what it represents
<Otter> ah, i meant churches
<Otter> yeah, religious retails shops would want to avoid pissing off their customers
<Otter> probalby woudnd't find much non-christian spiritual literature in either flavor of chistian store
<obli> but yeah it means that anglicans lack that venue to push their world view
<Otter> hmmmm
<Otter> if the chrsitian population is 1/3 anglican, why aren't there anglican stores?
<Otter> seems there ought to be enough demand, at least in cities
<obli> yeah but at least the saints and that happened in places people might have some connection too... and also encorage an intrest in history and so forth... seems more forfilling than an constant diet of bible... and steals some thunder from paganism
01[23:15] <obli> mana is a general protestant store
[23:15] <Otter> but not sufficient for pushing anglicanism?
01[23:16] <obli> hmm
01[23:16] <obli> i guess demographics have changed quite a bit since i was a kid
01[23:16] <obli> there are now more catholics 28% than all protestants put together
[23:17] <Otter> so less than half identify as christian?
01[23:17] <obli> yeah
01[23:17] <obli> no religion = 35%
01[23:18] <obli> Spiritualism and New Age religions[edit]
01[23:18] <obli> This collection of religious beliefs is represented by around 0.5% of the New Zealand population.[1]
01[23:20] <obli> :P
[23:21] <Otter> according the wikipedia, the US is 60-78% christian
[23:21] <Otter> 15-37% unafiliated
[23:21] <Otter> 0.1% pagan
01[23:21] <obli> :P
01[23:22] <obli> we are probably less
01[23:22] <obli> less than 1 in 1000 :(
01[23:22] <obli> prehaps i should move to the uk
[23:24] <Otter> it's an option
[23:24] <Otter> i think their pagan numbers might be inflated by campaigns using the designation as a banner for religious diversity
[23:26] <Otter> it's one hell of a lot easier to find a druid there, though
[23:29] <Otter> our census burea isn't allowed to ask about religion, hence the numbers tend to come with some bias
[23:30] <Otter> i've read some pretty ridiculous statistics about what people here supposedly believe
[23:32] <Otter> the only way i can see getting 50% or better believing in creationism or that the world is only 6000 years old is if the survey was a church exit pole conducted by the ministers of a particular sect