pre gardnerian british neo paganism and practical reconstructionism

Otter> hi Obli

<jobli> hi otter

<jobli> hows things yo

<jobli> :(

<jobli> sigh soigh

<Otter> could be worse

<Otter> how are you doing?

<jobli> ok

<Otter> why the sigh and frown?

<jobli> becuase i was aloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ne

<Otter> ah. well, i'm back now, feel better? :-)

<jobli> somewhat

<jobli> i need to make a website otter

<Otter> for what?

<jobli> a pre-gardnerian british neo-paganism website

<Otter> cool

<jobli> wish i had a more susinct name

<Otter> hmmmm

<Otter> how far back do you go?

<jobli> 1899

<jobli> basicly theres 3 main texts

<jobli> foundational texts that were used by actual practitioners

<jobli> :P

<jobli> they are fairly disperate in purposes though

<jobli> sorry

<jobli> i keep getting distracted

<Otter> in Bonewits' classication system, do you think that would be mesopagan or neopagan?

<jobli> are you familiar with aridia Otter?

<Otter> hmmm, don't think so.

<Otter> not spelled that way, at least

<jobli> sorry

<jobli> aradia

<jobli> :P

<Otter> Aradia is important in Strega

<jobli> whats

<Otter> ah, yes

<Otter> not that we've met

<jobli> bonewits deifintion of mesopagan?

<jobli> i mean aradia the book

<Otter> ah.... Leland?

<jobli> not the (demi) goddess

<jobli> yeah

<Otter> hven't read it, but i'm aware of it

<Otter> Bonewits has three categories, paleopagan for the pre-christian tradition. mesopagan for the earlier revivals. neopagan for the current revival

<Otter> the difference between meso and neo is as much about monotheistic influences as it is about timing

<jobli> basicly it's leland, westlake and seymour

<Otter> not quite sure i follow him. he's got Wicca as neo, though it's mono at the core

<jobli> what are some examples of paths he would class as mesopagan

<Otter> in the early OBOD/ADO liturgy you find references to archangles and whatnot, making it pretty mesopagan

<jobli> becuase all 3 are talking about polythiesm and all 3 predate wicca

<Otter> while the modern currents are more clearly neo

<Otter> more polytheistic, environmentalist, etc

<Otter> it might be worth considering this system while you try to coin a name

<jobli> well i don't think mesopagan is a useful term at all

<jobli> so basicly its a choice between pagan and neo pagan

<Otter> freemasonry, rosicrucianism, early modern druidry, uh....

<Otter> santeria

<jobli> yeah

<Otter> non-bullshit famtrad witchcraft

<jobli> i wouldn't class any of them as particularily pagan at all

<Otter> early modern druidry aka romantic druidry

<jobli> yeah

* Otter nods

<Otter> well, they are and they aren't

<jobli> theres a better case fro druidry

<jobli> for

<jobli> and i guess some for santeria

<Otter> without them, we probalby woudln't have the current revival with it's (occasional) attention to historical accuracy

<jobli> though i'd class it as catholisism

<Otter> yeah, gets pretty muddy there

<Otter> there's a lot of paganism in catholicism

<Otter> all those saints

<Otter> some of whom are pretty clearly pagan deities

<jobli> yeah

<Otter> plus the holidays

<jobli> but only americans would even begin to clasify it as paganism

<Otter> hmmmm

<Otter> i don't know of anyone who classifies it that way

<jobli> fundies

<Otter> american or not

<Otter> maybe. don't talk to them much

<Otter> i'd expect them to say "satanism" rather than "paganism"

<Otter> but the two tend to be synonyms to them

<jobli> seems like most americans don't even classify catholics as christians

<jobli> not just fundies

<jobli> but yeah

<Otter> where did you get that idea?

<jobli> see this is what happens when you start classifyinf freemasons and rosicrucians as pagan

<jobli> you end up talking about christianity

<jobli> from talking to americans

<Otter> lol

<Otter> well, i've lived in the US all my life, and i've never run into that idea

<Otter> well, except form fanatics who classify any sect other than their own as satanic

<jobli> i'd rather talk about paganism :P

<Otter> because they have the ONE TRUE CHRISTIANITY

<jobli> christianity has enough words expended upon it

* Otter nods

<Otter> http://www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.html

<Otter> there's Bonewits article on paleo/neo/meso

<Otter> i dont' think it's too much of a stretch to call rosicrucianism pagan. they've got quite a few bits of egyptian polytheism in their traditions

<Otter> or at least AMORC does

<Otter> most of what i know about rosicrucianism i learned from a friend in that order

<jobli> i think neo pagan is accurate

<jobli> Aradia claims to be a continuation of diana worship

<Otter> one thing you could do is name the revival, and then call it early [whatever] paganism

<jobli> seymour concentrates on recreating the mystery religions

<jobli> westlake and his followers are mostly writing about polythiestic devotion

<Otter> does Aradia have the neo-ancient text problem?

<jobli> you'll have to explain what that it

<jobli> is

<Otter> a reconstructionist cobbles together a tradition out of his own ideas, bits of hte regional traditio he wants to rebuild, hinduism, shamanism, etc

<Otter> then claims he got it all from an ancient text

<Otter> or perhaps from a teacher

<Otter> that no one else has ever seen

<jobli> its from a manuscript leland got from a gypsie informant

<jobli> the manuscript exists at least

* Otter nods

<jobli> its characterised by leland as (what i'd term) a folk survival

<Otter> Diana-worshipping Gypsies?

<jobli> beyond his informant existing and the weight of the evidence being that she did indeed provide the manuscript

<jobli> it's hard to say the truth of the matter

<jobli> though she claims she got it from a 3rd party

<jobli> whether or not it is actually a folk survival isn't of life or death importance (to me)

* Otter nods

<Otter> lol

<jobli> its interesting as early reconstructionism

<Otter> good thing

<jobli> its also the only system out of the 3 with an almost single minded focus on magic

<Otter> yeah. i don't have a problem with that. it annoys the hell out of me though when people muddy the waters for future generations by "grandmothering" their reconstructions

<obli> but yeah

<obli> i don't think wicca has much apprechiation for the prechristian religions some of its followers take from

<obli> or polytheism in general

<Otter> from what i know of it, which may be incomplete/flat out wrong, Gard Wicca doesn't seem to

<Otter> some Wiccans since have dug around a little more, though

<Otter> i tend to see wicca as paganism for monotheists

<obli> i hope so... but it seems the defult posiition in wicca is the gods are masks for the "god and goddess"

* Otter nods

<Otter> and those two are in turn aspects of a single, unknowable, godamajig

<obli> heh

<Otter> so at it's core, it's monotheistic

<Otter> or so it looks to me

<obli> seems like wicca would be an easy fit with theosophicalism

<Otter> hmmm, atm, i can't remember the basic tenents of theosophy

<obli> its basicly the first movement to stumble upon the idea that all religions are true and you just have to puzzle out how to fit them all together

<obli> theres like accended masters and all kinds of other stuff

<obli> but yeah

<obli> oi went to a theosophical meeting once

<obli> but they tried to give me the hard sell

<Otter> yeah?

<obli> yeah join up for the membership

<obli> sorry

<obli> just seening what their latest lectures are

<obli> damn

<obli> missed an interesting one

<obli> alchemy at aoraki

<obli> (the highest mountain in new zealand) also known as mount cook

<Otter> what is their version of the hard sell?

<Otter> do they have some sort of fire and brimstone to threaten people with?

<Otter> or is it more a promise of revelation?

<obli> Objects of the Theosophical Society

<obli> First — To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste, or color.

<obli> Second — To encourage the study of Comparative Religion, Philosophy, and Science.

<obli> Third — To investigate the unexplained laws of Nature and the powers latent in man

<obli> more just salesman ship trying to get us to sign up as members

<obli> but if you do that

<obli> you are forever known as a theosophicalist

<obli> muddies the waters

<Otter> wasn't one of hte founders of theosophy... madame blavatsky? ... rather heaviliy antisemitic?

<obli> weren't almost all occultists antisemitic?

<obli> but yes

<obli> thats a yes

<Otter> dunno, maybe

<Otter> hitler and his buddies certainlyi were

<Otter> evangelism often makes me think about a couple girls who came around to my house a couple decades ago to try to get me to go to their church

<Otter> i asked them some really basic questions about their sect and its beliefs

<Otter> and they didn't have an answer for any of them

<Otter> apparently, the church elders had turned the girls out to spread the good word without first telling them what it was

<obli> how does one be prosemitic?

<obli> other than converting to judism

<obli> well we were at their meeting i guess

<obli> :P

<Otter> wel, you could be born into that tradition and practice it

<Otter> try to advance the status of your people

<Otter> i don't know, is it prosemitic to oppose antisemites?

<obli> when the majority of your people are living under an illfitting judaic worldview

<obli> its hard to help them without refuting it

<obli> or yourself for that matter

<obli> otter ... i don't know

<obli> its less antisemitic at least

<obli> i suspect all antisemites of being nazis

<obli> its a complicated issue

<obli> anyone who revels in antisemitism i automaticly distrust

<obli> anyone who is into hitler i automaticly hate

<Otter> i found this on urbandictionary.com. not particularly authoritiave, but fwiw

<Otter> pro-Semite

<Otter>

<Otter>

<Otter> 1) One who's thoughts and resultant behaviors support and are pursuant to the ideology that:

<Otter> A) The Nation of Israel has a right to exist,

<Otter> B) As a Jewish state it it so choses, and

<Otter> C) In peace and harmony with its neighbors

<Otter> 2) One who - either Jew or Gentile - stands in defiance of oppression against Jews and Judaism in any of its forms: mockery, belittlement, violence, defamation, disparagement etc. and et al.

<obli> but its pretty hard to make any spiritual progress if you are born in a country steeped in christianity if you don't dismantle the worldview inherted from the bible

<obli> but its pretty hard to make any spiritual progress (outside of christianity) if you are born in a country steeped in christianity if you don't dismantle the worldview inherted from the bible

<obli> and even then most christians are anti semitic to various degrees

<Otter> christianity never made sense to me.

<Otter> even when i was eight, i didn't believe

<obli> i didn't when i was 4

<obli> :P

<obli> paganism

<obli> :P

<obli> anyway the point about respect for the prechristian religions (esspecially ones that had direct interaction with roman paganism)

<obli> is i think i'm moving in the direction of practical reconstructionism

<Otter> is that from strict traditionalism?

<obli> no

<obli> its more like an aditive traditionalism

<obli> building from the varifiable

<Otter> what's varifiable?

<obli> archeology largely

<Otter> okay

<obli> some comparitive religion... but not just taking from other religions willy nilly... just using them as better models (than christianty) for understanding how prechristian polytheism (in the roman empire and its accendants) functioned

<obli> there was alot of regional diffrence in forms of worship

<obli> and individual understanding of the nature of divinity

<Otter> probably a fair amount of diversity even in the same village

<obli> it was probably pretty close to the situation in contempary japan

<obli> - the buddhism

<Otter> not sure i follow

<Otter> but i'm falling asleep

<obli> shintoism is based around various local shrines

* Otter nods

<obli> and theres a few larger movements

<obli> which i think orphism is comparible to

<obli> and the guru phenomonom... which is pretty universal really

<Otter> i agree about shintoism or hinduism being similar. budhism, not so much

<obli> itterinant fortune tellers and that

<obli> - the buddhism = minus the buddhism

<Otter> ah, okay

<Otter> i missed thepunctuation

<Otter> makes sense now

<obli> heh

<obli> no worries

<Otter> i'm going to head for bed while i'm still able

<obli> no worries

<Otter> have a good night

<obli> hopefully i'll catch you again soonish

<obli> you too