nz history and shit

01:58] <heathen_> did a good job of devising his own demise, but wrote a lot of good songs getting there

[01:58] <Scott> suicide?

[01:58] <Scott> or just hard living?

[01:58] <heathen_> hard living

#01[01:58] <jobli> everyone worth a damn devises their own demise

#01[01:59] <jobli> tupac !_!

[01:59] <heathen_> drugs, his mind ate him alive

[01:59] <Scott> drugs suck

#01[01:59] <jobli> drugs rock

[01:59] <Scott> it's true, that old saying - you don't know what you got til it's gone.

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[02:00] <Aleph> im waiting on drugs nowwwwwwwwww

[02:00] <Aleph> but i'm ill, I can't ukin breathe!!!!

[02:00] <Scott> well, a lot of people don't know what they had even after it's gone.

[02:00] <Aleph> fukin*

[02:01] <heathen_> Gram Parsons & Emmylou Harris Hickory Wind Slideshow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S11HnNXcjbk

#01[02:04] <jobli> you don't know what you got till you smoke it

#02[02:04] * Aleph (Me@ABABA2.C3A4CE.22561B.BC6B69) Quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds#)

[02:05] <Scott> i think the human race is lost

[02:05] <Scott> i'm realizing it more day by day

[02:05] <Scott> it's such a pity

[02:05] <Scott> we've developed such beautiy.

[02:06] <Scott> i know nothing lasts forever

[02:06] <Scott> still, it makes me sad how we throw this away

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[02:19] <alive> i am alive.... AND LOVING IT.

[02:19] <heathen_> hello alive

[02:19] <alive> hello

[02:19] <alive> how are you?

[02:20] <heathen_> im good thanks.

[02:20] <heathen_> seems you are feeling fine

[02:20] <alive> that's goooooooood

[02:20] <alive> i am fine!

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[02:21] <alive> i've bottled it. it is within.

#01[02:21] <jobli> Scott speak for yourself kid

[02:21] <alive> i am speaking for myself. who the hell else would i be speaking for?

[02:21] <alive> oh.

[02:21] <alive> Scott.

[02:21] <alive> okay.

[02:21] <alive> i apologise.

[02:23] <alive> okay, carry on :-)

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[02:24] <Scott> huh?

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[02:24] <Scott> i missed something

[02:25] <Scott> what would you like me to say for myself?

[02:25] <Scott> and

[02:25] <Scott> does anyone know how long pancake batter will stay good in the fridge?

[02:25] <Scott> i mean... is 2 weeks too long?

[02:25] <Scott> it doesn't smell bad, but it seems to have turned a darker color.

#01[02:27] <jobli> that you are lost

#01[02:27] <jobli> thats what i want you to say

[02:27] <Scott> i'm lost?

#06[02:27] * Scott clears throat

[02:27] <Scott> I am lost.

[02:27] <Scott> why am i saying "I am lost"?

#01[02:28] <jobli> becuase you are speaking for yourself

#01[02:29] <jobli> not all of humanity

[02:29] <Scott> ll

[02:29] <Scott> oh that

[02:30] <Scott> you know, i begin to suspect that you kinda missed the point

[02:30] <Scott> probably because you're brain's been affected by drugs.

[02:31] <heathen_> the rolling stones - tell me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JDwbXlhjP0

#01[02:32] <jobli> anti drug people are so patrionising

#01[02:32] <jobli> i attribute it to them being squares

[02:34] <Scott> actually....

#01[02:34] <jobli> you are an oblong?

[02:34] <Scott> i also suspect you don't know what "patronizing" actually means

[02:35] <Scott> also....

#01[02:35] <jobli> it means talking down to people like ^^^

[02:35] <Scott> "square" is in the eye of the beholder.

#01[02:35] <jobli> and take your imperialist zed and shove it yank

[02:36] <Scott> you're now making absolutely no sense

[02:36] <Scott> probably you're brain's affected by drugs

[02:37] <Scott> now, i'm citing this as something i believe to be a likely explanation.

#01[02:37] <jobli> it makes no sense to the ignorant

[02:37] <Scott> i'm wondering what you're internal definition of "ignorant" might be, too

#01[02:37] <jobli> putting a z in patronising is the american spelling retard

#01[02:38] <jobli> thats what it means

#01[02:38] <jobli> get some fucking self awareness

[02:39] <Scott> actually, what you want me to have, i think, is international awareness.

#01[02:39] <jobli> its all relational

[02:40] <Scott> you're a regular einstein, aren't you?

#01[02:40] <jobli> i wassn't aware you could sneer through text but somehow you manage it

[02:41] <Scott> well, at least you recognize irony.

#01[02:41] <jobli> word

[02:41] <Scott> you have missed the deeper sneer, though, i think.

#06[02:41] * Scott giggles

#01[02:42] <jobli> so

#01[02:42] <jobli> what now

[02:42] <Scott> this time i'll blame a combination of drugs and pink floyd

#01[02:42] <jobli> i hate pink floyd

[02:42] <Scott> anyway... what would you like to do now?

#01[02:42] <jobli> so the combination of drugs and hating pink floyd

[02:43] <Scott> it's not quite so direct

[02:43] <Scott> i was thinking of "not needing no education"

[02:44] <Scott> at this point, my humor's getting so obscure, i can barely keep track of it.

#01[02:44] <jobli> is this going somewhere?

[02:44] <Scott> i think we should move on.

#01[02:44] <jobli> yeah

[02:45] <Scott> by the way - if you were wondering - pancake batter will still work after two weeks in the fridge.

[02:46] <Scott> they're a bit flat

[02:46] <Scott> but still tasty

[02:47] <Scott> so you disagree with my diagnosis about the human race, eh?

#01[02:48] <jobli> yeah

#01[02:48] <jobli> i think its needlessly defeatist :P

[02:49] <Scott> what's it like where you live?

#01[02:49] <jobli> alright... i have contact with a small segement of the population though

[02:50] <Scott> lucky

#01[02:50] <jobli> almost all of who are green voting athiests of various stripes

[02:51] <Scott> here in Missouri, USA, it's very rural, sparsely populated, mainly by redneck republicans. we have forests and fields mostly, corn and cows. the weather is sometimes great, but the past 4 years have been either drought or flood.

[02:53] <Scott> i threw in that republican bit because you mentioned the green party

[02:53] <Scott> pretty cunning, eh?

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#01[02:55] <jobli> anywhere in america seems pretty dire man

[02:55] <Scott> depending how you look at things, yes.

#01[02:55] <jobli> i found traveling around the states pretty oppressive

[02:56] <Scott> in what ways?

#01[02:56] <jobli> just a general feeling of dispair

#01[02:56] <jobli> this was back in 2010 though

[02:56] <Scott> yes

[02:56] <Scott> it's been bad since those bankers stole all that money, put it in offshore accounts, and had their local bank accounts refilled by the government.

[02:57] <Scott> which i think was late in 2009

[02:57] <Scott> if i remember right

#01[02:57] <jobli> 2008

[02:57] <Scott> ah

[02:57] <Scott> thanks

#01[02:57] <jobli> but yeah

#01[02:57] <jobli> i don't drive

#01[02:57] <jobli> mass homelessness was unavoidable

#01[02:58] <jobli> alot worse even than europe

#01[02:58] <jobli> a million times worse than here

[02:58] <Scott> yes

#02[02:58] * neko (boo@FE66F3.B47D26.1D834A.7A8230) Quit (Quit: #)

[02:58] <Scott> as long as you can convince people they're free and living in the greatest country in the world, you can feed them next to nothing

[02:58] <Scott> and enslave them in any way

[02:59] <Scott> steal everything they've got

[02:59] <Scott> strip them of their rights

[02:59] <Scott> dump poison in their food and air and land and water

[02:59] <Scott> so long as they're aware that they're free, just about anything's ok

#01[03:00] <jobli> yeah

#01[03:01] <jobli> oprah was esspcially disgusting

[03:01] <Scott> good lord

[03:01] <Scott> you must have been seeking out torturous sights

#01[03:01] <jobli> she'd regualarly air episodes about how "american women are the most free on earth"

#01[03:01] <jobli> europe doesn't exist i guess

#01[03:01] <jobli> nah

#01[03:01] <jobli> we get alot of american tv here

[03:01] <Scott> was this before she found ekart tolle?

#01[03:02] <jobli> yes

#01[03:03] <jobli> this would have been

#01[03:03] <jobli> 2003-2006ish i imagine

[03:04] <Scott> ah ok

[03:04] <Scott> so you think england is in better shape, eh?

[03:05] <Scott> europe in general?

[03:05] <Scott> (except spain and italy, i guess)

#01[03:05] <jobli> i think the culture in england is in a better position to make the neccicary changes

#01[03:05] <jobli> well

#01[03:05] <jobli> britian

[03:05] <Scott> yes

[03:06] <Scott> i wonder.

#01[03:06] <jobli> i don't know how commited the rest of europe is to anti fascism

#01[03:06] <jobli> i think britian has a very effective anti fascist network though

[03:07] <Scott> i'd have guessed you're politicians were just as beholden to large financial donors as ours are here.

#01[03:07] <jobli> and i think thats a better defence than guns

#01[03:07] <jobli> sorry

#01[03:07] <jobli> i'm in new zealand

[03:07] <Scott> lol

[03:07] <Scott> guns is such a distraction issue

[03:07] <Scott> ohhh

[03:07] <Scott> i dunno why i thought england

#01[03:07] <jobli> and i don't know is our politions are "beholden" so much as willing pawns

[03:07] <Scott> new zealand's still in very good shape, ya

[03:08] <Scott> lol willing pawns?

#01[03:08] <jobli> i don't think our politicans are even getting paid for selling us out

[03:08] <Scott> i thought new zealand had some great ways of doing anything

[03:08] <Scott> wow

[03:08] <Scott> that's disappointing

#01[03:08] <jobli> the neoliberal rot is deep set in the two major parties here

#01[03:08] <jobli> we pretty much went full "free market" in 1984

[03:08] <Scott> i think that must be programmed into us genetically

[03:09] <Scott> so what about the environmental protection laws?

#01[03:09] <jobli> i think the population in generally is fairly resistant to it

#01[03:09] <jobli> its hard to say

[03:09] <Scott> to environmental protection? or full free market?

#01[03:09] <jobli> neoliberal policies

[03:10] <Scott> oh

[03:10] <Scott> the trend seems to be... it doesn't matter what the masses think.

#01[03:10] <jobli> but yeah its hard to say on enviromental protection

#01[03:10] <jobli> i think its still fairly strict on industry

[03:10] <Scott> i agree guns are useless, but so is protest, really.

#01[03:10] <jobli> but our main polutters are dairy farms

#01[03:10] <jobli> yeah

#01[03:11] <jobli> we have MMP so theres a chance voting could change things

#01[03:11] <jobli> greens are slowly gaining votes

#01[03:11] <jobli> they got over 10% last election

[03:11] <Scott> nice

[03:11] <Scott> only like 3% here

#01[03:12] <jobli> compared to labour (the established centre left party) which got 30%

[03:13] <Scott> of course, we don't have that alternate choice voting thing

#01[03:13] <jobli> and 10% of the vote is 14 seats

#01[03:13] <jobli> so its not too bad

[03:13] <Scott> i expect our greens would get a lot higher percentage if we had it

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[03:14] <Scott> what's MMP?

#01[03:14] <jobli> mixed member proportional

[03:14] <Scott> ok

[03:14] <Scott> that's the thing where you can pick two

#01[03:14] <jobli> yeah

[03:14] <Scott> a first choice and a 2nd

[03:14] <Scott> ok

#01[03:14] <jobli> no

[03:14] <Scott> no?

#01[03:14] <jobli> you get one party vote

#01[03:14] <jobli> and one vote for a local representitive

#01[03:15] <jobli> each party gets a number of seats in preportion to the ammount of votes it gets in the party vote

#01[03:15] <jobli> (if its over 5%)

#01[03:16] <jobli> its like the german system basicly

[03:16] <Scott> i'm not sure how that would help change thigs

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#01[03:18] <jobli> well under first past the post (where you only vote for a local representive) it was basicly a choice between a labour mp or a national (tory) mp if you wanted your vote to infljuence things nationally... so we ended up with a two party system

#01[03:19] <jobli> under mmp your party vote is taken as a national vote... so it just has to be 5% of people in the country voting for a party for it to get into parliment

#01[03:19] <jobli> rather than having to have a majority in a local electorate to get someone into parliment

#01[03:20] <jobli> so we have 7 parties in parliment right now

#01[03:20] <jobli> sorry

#01[03:20] <jobli> 8

[03:21] <Scott> does it seem to help?

#01[03:21] <jobli> yes

#01[03:21] <jobli> alot

#01[03:21] <jobli> theres some non neoliberal representation

#01[03:21] <jobli> as opposed to none when it was just national and labour

#01[03:22] <jobli> the greens are generally a moderating influence when labour is in power

#01[03:22] <jobli> since the major parties have to form coalitions in order to govern under mmp

[03:22] <Scott> i see

[03:23] <Scott> i understand now, yes.

#01[03:23] <jobli> and if you break 5% you get 8 mps

#01[03:24] <jobli> which is some signifigant bargining power

[03:24] <Scott> yeah

#06[03:24] * Scott shakes head

[03:24] <Scott> i wonder how your country managed it

#01[03:25] <jobli> heh... national made an election promise back in 1990 that they'd put a change in the voting system up for a refurendum if they won

#01[03:25] <jobli> and they won

#01[03:26] <jobli> and they didn't expect people to actually vote to make the system less shitty

#01[03:26] <jobli> more fool them

#01[03:26] <jobli> they tried to undo it last election

#01[03:26] <jobli> it got voted down hard

[03:26] <Scott> :)

[03:26] <Scott> that's pretty awesome

#01[03:27] <jobli> yeah

#01[03:27] <jobli> unfortunatly they are in power atm and are trying to privatise our power plants

[03:27] <Scott> bastards

#01[03:28] <jobli> yeah

#01[03:28] <jobli> its purely idiological

#01[03:28] <jobli> they won't get much for them

#01[03:28] <jobli> becuase people have thrown a million spoilers in their way

#01[03:28] <jobli> maori have lawsuits pending over water rights

#01[03:28] <jobli> (they are hyrdo plants)

#01[03:28] <jobli> labour and the greens have promised to put a cap on power prices

[03:29] <Scott> idiology is just the excuse

#01[03:29] <jobli> nah

#01[03:29] <jobli> the excuse is "we are in debt we need to sell sell sell"

#01[03:29] <jobli> but its neoliberal globalist idiology driving it

[03:29] <Scott> yeah. corporations want to control utilities, so they make this big move on representatives and media

[03:30] <Scott> they make this big excuse based on idiology so they can sell out to financial powers

#01[03:30] <jobli> yeah

[03:30] <Scott> then instead of the people controling the utilities, some rich guy does

[03:30] <Scott> and the prices start to rise

#01[03:31] <jobli> yeah

#01[03:31] <jobli> at this stage is sustained through their own propaganda though

#01[03:31] <jobli> as in

#01[03:31] <jobli> they are buying their own talking points from the 80s

#01[03:31] <jobli> trickle down bullshit

#01[03:31] <jobli> the invisible hand

[03:31] <Scott> lol

#01[03:31] <jobli> dole bludgers

#01[03:32] <jobli> they're having a hard time of it though

[03:32] <Scott> oh?

#01[03:32] <jobli> i'm hopeful this marks a turning point

[03:32] <Scott> yeah

[03:32] <Scott> you're right

[03:32] <Scott> i noticed over the past five years

#01[03:32] <jobli> back in the 80's when this shit swept in there was a fire sale on everything

[03:32] <Scott> a lot of people are

#01[03:32] <jobli> telecommunications

[03:32] <Scott> what? coming out of the fog

#01[03:32] <jobli> rail

[03:32] <Scott> waking up

#01[03:32] <jobli> airlines

#01[03:33] <jobli> well its just obvious as hell it doesn't work

#01[03:33] <jobli> history proves it

[03:33] <Scott> oh well, it's been tried and tested here in the USA

#01[03:33] <jobli> yeah

#01[03:33] <jobli> public forests

[03:33] <Scott> the point is... it doesn't work for WHO?

#01[03:33] <jobli> for the voters

[03:33] <Scott> it works damned well for rich guys

[03:33] <Scott> so it happens

#01[03:33] <jobli> yeah

#01[03:34] <jobli> but they arn't new zealanders

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[03:34] <Scott> new zealand is pretty special in some ways

#01[03:34] <jobli> we'll see :P

[03:35] <Scott> the maori were the only "natives" to ever beat the english at their own game

#01[03:36] <jobli> its a complicated relationship

[03:36] <Scott> or, well, they at very least held their own

#01[03:37] <jobli> if theres any hope for magnanomous race relations working out anywhere new zealand has the best chance

[03:37] <Scott> magnanomous race relations

#01[03:37] <jobli> :P

[03:37] <Scott> i like this lol

[03:38] <Scott> oh, it's an i

[03:38] <Scott> magnanimous

#01[03:38] <jobli> yeah spelling isn't my strong suit

[03:38] <Scott> me neither

[03:38] <Scott> that's why i googled it

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[03:38] <Scott> i felt a twinge

[03:38] <Scott> lol

#01[03:39] <jobli> but yeah... there was only one treaty here and it was taken around the entire country

#01[03:39] <jobli> which makes things reasonably straight foward

[03:40] <Scott> i think those guys were very shrewed negotiators

#01[03:40] <jobli> the stars were right

[03:40] <Scott> @@

[03:40] <Scott> maybe

#01[03:40] <jobli> alot of circumstances worked out favourably

[03:41] <Scott> like what?

#01[03:41] <jobli> new zealand was colonised during the naider of imperialism

#01[03:41] <jobli> pretty much soley to prevent the french getting it

[03:41] <Scott> what's the affect of a nadir?

[03:41] <Scott> in this context?

[03:42] <Scott> the stars, i mean?

#01[03:42] <jobli> its just an expression

[03:42] <Scott> or did you mean ... just the lowest point of the empire?

#01[03:42] <jobli> but the nader means

#01[03:42] <jobli> there wassn't a huge ammount of imperial enthusiasm

#01[03:42] <jobli> comparitivly

#01[03:42] <jobli> to the eras before and after it

#01[03:42] <jobli> it was 1840

[03:43] <Scott> lol ok - you meantioned stars. i thought you meant something astrological -_-

#01[03:43] <jobli> slavery was abolished throughout the empire in 1833

[03:43] <Scott> yeah, i see what you mean

[03:43] <Scott> still, people had that attitude

#01[03:44] <jobli> japan wassn't opened untill the 1850s/60's.... kypling didn't become a major force untill the 1870's

[03:44] <Scott> and new zealand had.. well, some strange resources for trade

[03:44] <Scott> coveted by creepy english people

#01[03:44] <jobli> also the maori were seen as relitively civilised

#01[03:45] <jobli> or good candidates for civilising

#01[03:45] <jobli> compared to the abrorigionies esspecially

[03:45] <Scott> this was more like what i had in mind

[03:45] <Scott> yeah

[03:45] <Scott> and the american indians

#01[03:45] <jobli> maori had agriculture

#01[03:45] <jobli> they had slavery

[03:45] <Scott> and almost every other small place england conquered

[03:46] <Scott> but they were negotiators

#01[03:46] <jobli> they took to working as sailors

#01[03:46] <jobli> and reading

#01[03:46] <jobli> very quickly

#01[03:46] <jobli> yeah

[03:46] <Scott> yes, and smart

[03:46] <Scott> though, i admit, i hadn't considered the slavery angle

#01[03:46] <jobli> also they saw the value of guns almost instantly

[03:46] <Scott> and the changes in imperealis policy

#01[03:46] <jobli> took to the guns

[03:46] <Scott> imperialist*

#01[03:46] <jobli> took to the bible

[03:47] <Scott> heh

[03:47] <Scott> another smart move politically

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#01[03:47] <jobli> they had social stratification which gave them people able to negotiate on behalf of the tribe

[03:48] <Scott> yeah

#01[03:48] <jobli> but also the treaty gave them things they didn't themselves demand

[03:49] <Scott> you said kypling didn't become a major force untill the 1870... how does that play into this?

#01[03:49] <jobli> which were the products of the nader of imperialism

#01[03:49] <jobli> like british citizenship

#01[03:49] <jobli> or

#01[03:49] <jobli> sorry

#01[03:49] <jobli> the rights of british subjects

[03:49] <Scott> ok

[03:49] <Scott> i understnad

[03:49] <Scott> understand

#01[03:49] <jobli> which ment they were equal under the law

#01[03:50] <jobli> also there was a french missionary present during the drafting of the treaty who insisted in freedom of religion being added

[03:50] <Scott> heh

[03:50] <Scott> that's interesting

[03:51] <Scott> seems ... i don't know... unlikely

[03:51] <Scott> wouldn't a missionary be concerned with giving people the freedom to worship his own religion and no other?

#01[03:51] <jobli> well it wouldn't have been hard to impose uniformity of religion

#01[03:52] <jobli> due to anglicans and presbytarians both being british

#01[03:52] <jobli> well the french missionary was catholic of course

[03:52] <Scott> oh

[03:52] <Scott> ok, i see

[03:52] <Scott> which put churches in a position of competition

[03:52] <Scott> which gave them an interest in the people

[03:53] <Scott> which added some protection for the people

[03:53] <Scott> now i see

#01[03:54] <jobli> also maori could only legally sell land to the government

#01[03:55] <jobli> which prevented rampant exploitation by private parties

[03:55] <Scott> heh

[03:55] <Scott> back then

[03:56] <Scott> i thought you guys still had good protection for the land

[03:56] <Scott> some guy was telling me about the regulations around construction sites

#01[03:56] <jobli> i mean rampant exploitation of maori

[03:56] <Scott> sorry - i moved us forward in time to now

[03:56] <Scott> :P

#01[03:56] <jobli> yeah contruction permission is pretty sringent

#01[03:57] <jobli> also maori retain various land rights

[03:57] <Scott> that's cool

[03:57] <Scott> it seems like you have good reason for hope

#01[03:57] <jobli> partly due to government ignoring the treaty

#01[03:57] <jobli> so the outcome of various settlements

#01[03:58] <jobli> legal settlements

#01[03:58] <jobli> theres a court that just deals with treaty claims

[03:58] <Scott> i think we just gave our natives whiskey and welfare checks.

[03:58] <Scott> that took care of it for them

[03:59] <Scott> those that were left after the slaughter.

[03:59] <Scott> see why i admire the maori?

#01[03:59] <jobli> thats the benifit of one treaty

[03:59] <Scott> even if the stars were with them, they still had the brains to make use of that opportunity.

#01[04:00] <jobli> there were conflicts in the north island that lasted about 30 years after the treaty

#01[04:01] <jobli> the maori were fairy vicious and into warfare and revenge

#01[04:01] <jobli> probably why we get on :P

[04:02] <Scott> yes, i know

[04:02] <Scott> lol

#01[04:02] <jobli> but yeah another case of good luck

#01[04:02] <jobli> the conflict died out right about the start of the new imperialism

#01[04:02] <jobli> or rather

#01[04:02] <jobli> just before the start

#01[04:03] <jobli> the british pulled their troops out before the conflicts were over

#01[04:04] <jobli> shit could probably have gone very sour had they still been raging in the 1870s

[04:04] <Scott> how?

[04:04] <Scott> what do you mean?

#01[04:05] <jobli> there was a resurgence of imperialism in the 1870's

[04:05] <Scott> oh, i see

#01[04:05] <jobli> kipling etc.

[04:05] <Scott> well, i mean, that's probably why they pulled out.

#01[04:05] <jobli> also germany suddenly became a player

#01[04:05] <jobli> nah

#01[04:05] <jobli> they pulled out well before then

[04:05] <Scott> shrunken heads are great fun and all, but the real money's in tea

#01[04:06] <jobli> the franco prussian was was the turning point

[04:06] <Scott> weren't they just all over asia about then?

#01[04:06] <jobli> china was on going

[04:06] <Scott> dam, you are just a history fooking genius

#01[04:06] <jobli> but the scrable for africa started in the 1870s

[04:06] <Scott> i'm keeping you.

#06[04:06] * Scott nods

[04:07] <Scott> ahh right

#01[04:07] <jobli> also germanys defeat of france was a major upset to the ballance of power

#01[04:07] <jobli> everyone thought france was invincible

#01[04:07] <jobli> or at least

#01[04:07] <jobli> the best army in europe

#01[04:08] <jobli> and prussia crushed them quick fast

#01[04:08] <jobli> paris became the first communist government on earth (for a few months)

[04:08] <Scott> heh.

[04:08] <Scott> i didn't know that.

#01[04:08] <jobli> italy was suddenly independant

#01[04:09] <jobli> 6th form history was the only class i learned a damned thing in in high school

[04:09] <Scott> lol

#01[04:09] <jobli> it was basicly a whole year about the unification of germany

[04:10] <Scott> well, you learned it pretty well, it seems

#01[04:10] <jobli> a topic i'd have never looked at by myself

#01[04:10] <jobli> alot of this is independant research

#01[04:10] <jobli> but it makes the timeline easyer

[04:10] <Scott> i need a timeline. that might help me organize things in my head.

#01[04:10] <jobli> becuase most of this relates strongly to germanys various wars of unification

[04:11] <Scott> i know 1870 is after the french revolution, so england must have been having trouble at home with people wanting some sort of better life/freedom/government

[04:11] <Scott> whigs and tories then, right?

[04:11] <Scott> the governnment of england was kind of in a shambles at that tine

[04:11] <Scott> time

#01[04:11] <jobli> it was just the general victorian era

#01[04:12] <jobli> i think most european progressivism was still exausted after 1848

#01[04:12] <jobli> when there was a series of failed revolutions (though not in the uk)

[04:13] <Scott> yeah, i guess the french revolution was too far back for that to still be going on

#01[04:13] <jobli> there were some large scale protests though

#01[04:13] <jobli> but that was part of the point of empire

[04:13] <Scott> what was part of the point?

#01[04:13] <jobli> somewhere to ship everyone disgruntled/ in search of opportunites off too

[04:13] <Scott> ahhh ok

[04:13] <Scott> i see. yeah.

#01[04:13] <jobli> the british empire might never have existed had america not become independant

#03[04:14] * obsessed (obsessed@0E57D4.A7E93B.FD2747.105F3D) has joined #Buddhism

#01[04:14] <jobli> or at least not as behemoth it became

[04:14] <Scott> they still sent people here, didn't they?

#01[04:14] <jobli> canada?

[04:14] <Scott> oh... they prefered australia

[04:14] <Scott> cuz they could control them

#01[04:14] <jobli> new zealand was all volentary immigration

[04:15] <Scott> i meant USA, but yeah. i dunno what i'm talking about, though.

#01[04:15] <jobli> but it was almost entirely working class

[04:15] <Scott> yeah, but people they wanted to exile were sent to australia

#01[04:15] <jobli> becuase better than dying in a factory for an unlivable wage

#01[04:15] <jobli> yeah

#01[04:15] <jobli> before that they usually hung 'em

[04:15] <Scott> so people who actually Wanted to go, went to new zealand

#01[04:16] <jobli> so sending them to australia was the merciful option :P

[04:16] <Scott> another bonus for you, i guess

[04:16] <Scott> lol well... i kinda like australia.

[04:16] <Scott> it's fascinating.

[04:16] <Scott> kangaroos and stuff.

[04:16] <Scott> :D

#01[04:16] <jobli> australia got volentary immigration reasonably early on... i don't think they stopped sending convicts untill the 1850s though

[04:16] <Aleph> didgeridoos , wombats and boomerangs

[04:17] <Scott> my dad was about to leave for australia when he died. i was like 2 months old.

[04:17] <Aleph> #6C# #Y##4a# #3B##4e# #3B##4a##6C###3K# ##4i####6N# #4a# #3B###4i##T#

[04:17] <Scott> had he not gotten killed, i'd probably be living there now.

#01[04:17] <jobli> its hot

[04:17] <Scott> so i've heard :)

[04:17] <Scott> no, i might crash on your couch for fun

[04:18] <Scott> but i'm not heading to australia

[04:18] <Scott> not unless it's that or hang

[04:18] <Scott> lol

#01[04:18] <jobli> you wouldn't like it

#01[04:18] <jobli> i am drug addled :P

[04:18] <Scott> australia's fascinating from a distance

[04:18] <Scott> lol yes

[04:18] <Scott> but you're smart for now

[04:18] <Scott> that'll all go away in a decade or so

[04:19] <Scott> til then, i'll let you host me

[04:19] <Scott> lol

#01[04:19] <jobli> if smoking weed makes you dumb i must have been a genieus when i was younger - time shadbolt (mayor of the city i am from)

[04:19] <Scott> i'll definitely take the history lessons

[04:20] <Scott> well.. i was a genius when i was younger.

[04:20] <Scott> definitely not now.

#01[04:20] <jobli> i just worry people have low expectations

[04:20] <Scott> what do you mean?

#01[04:21] <jobli> of what smart it

[04:21] <Scott> i can't define it. i know it when i see it.

[04:22] <Scott> (Justice Potter Stewart - on pornography)

[04:22] <Scott> see, smart is knowing the first line.

[04:22] <Scott> genius is knowing the second line (the attribution) without google.

[04:23] <Scott> i'm kidding, actually.

[04:23] <Scott> lol

#01[04:23] <jobli> i think the most important characterist is possessing an intellectual curiosity

#01[04:23] <jobli> characteristic

[04:24] <Scott> maybe

[04:24] <Scott> but curiosity's no good if you can't "put two and two together"

[04:24] <Scott> and that takes a measure of creativity

#01[04:24] <jobli> you can learn to put two and two together if you care enough to find out how

[04:25] <Scott> seeing not just the facts, but the connections between things and how to apply the knowledge

#01[04:25] <jobli> lsd is good for that

[04:25] <Scott> maybe for a time

[04:25] <Scott> but it destroys your natural ability to do so

#01[04:25] <jobli> usually about 6 to 8 hours

#01[04:26] <jobli> i think society if far more destructive in that regard

[04:26] <Scott> anyway, i'm not going to bicker with a druggie about drugs.

[04:26] <Scott> true

[04:26] <Scott> education is shit

#02[04:26] * La_IamImmorte (La@09709F.3FA442.911717.BFB4FF) Quit (Quit: #)

[04:26] <Scott> media is shit

[04:26] <Scott> food is shit

[04:26] <Scott> well, i'm speaking of here

[04:26] <Scott> i dunno how it is there

#01[04:27] <jobli> dealing with people who don't get irony or sarcasm

#01[04:27] <jobli> thats the worst

#01[04:27] <jobli> it killed me

[04:27] <Scott> heh

[04:27] <Scott> well... i can do it.

[04:27] <Scott> it's not as fun :D

#01[04:27] <jobli> working with them man

#06[04:27] * Scott shudders

#01[04:28] <jobli> theres no getting around it when you work with them

#01[04:28] <jobli> then you just stop caring

#01[04:28] <jobli> about anything

[04:28] <Scott> because you work with dull people?

[04:28] <Scott> hmmm

#01[04:28] <jobli> you have to censor yourself all the time

#01[04:28] <jobli> and state things plainly

[04:28] <Scott> ahhh yeah, i see what you mean

[04:28] <Scott> that would be tough

#01[04:29] <jobli> p soul destorying

[04:29] <Scott> i've lol well

[04:29] <Scott> you can come play in icq - that'll liven up your soul

[04:29] <Scott> i'll introduce you to some smart ones

#01[04:29] <jobli> :P

[04:29] <Scott> crazy smart

[04:29] <Scott> i'm serious

[04:29] <Scott> i just love them

-

#01[04:29] Scott is Scott@ED0186.03C53B.5DC97A.D8B4A8 * Scott

#01[04:29] Scott on #Buddhism #lost

#01[04:29] Scott using irc-m01a.orange.icq.com ICQ IRC Server (LEAF)

#01[04:29] Scott is logged in as scott

#01[04:29] Scott has been idle 6secs, signed on Sun Apr 28 01:45:47

#01[04:29] Scott End of /WHOIS list.

-

[04:30] <Scott> well, unfortunately, they're not around much these days

#01[04:30] <jobli> sounds smart already

[04:30] <Scott> lol

[04:30] <Scott> true

[04:30] <Scott> we had a really good year last year

[04:30] <Scott> and the year before

#01[04:31] <jobli> i had a great year in 2011

[04:31] <Scott> though you might have called it an addiction problem

#01[04:31] <jobli> living with hippies

[04:31] <Scott> in chat?

[04:31] <Scott> ahhh

[04:31] <mrpanda> BURP

#06[04:31] * Scott fashions a panda trap using a length of rope, a large wicker basket, and a bowling ball

#03[04:32] * athena (Me@2A45CA.16EF76.06020C.ADF998) has joined #Buddhism

[04:32] <athena> MrChips r u from singapore ?

#03[04:33] * athena (Me@2A45CA.16EF76.06020C.ADF998) has left #Buddhism

#02[04:35] * Aleph (Me@ABABA2.C3A4CE.37CEAB.51B538) Quit (Connection closed#)

#03[04:35] * Aleph (Me@ABABA2.C3A4CE.37CEAB.51B538) has joined #Buddhism

[04:36] <Scott> iceland is another good country for politics

[04:36] <Scott> i'm anxious to see how things go there

[04:52] <Scott> hm. or not. looks like they've blown it already.

#01[04:52] <jobli> hows that

[04:53] <Scott> they had some kind of revolution, forced the government to resign

[04:53] <Scott> that was a year or two ago

#01[04:53] <jobli> yeah

[04:53] <Scott> now it looks like they're right back where they were before.

#01[04:53] <jobli> :P

[04:54] <Scott> sad.

[04:54] <mrpanda> nice

[04:54] <mrpanda> tat's great news scott !

[04:54] <mrpanda> that's

[04:54] <Scott> @@

[04:54] <mrpanda> the people will never win

[04:54] <mrpanda> we need to keep them on a tight leash

[04:55] <mrpanda> we need to sell dirt for money

[04:55] <mrpanda> and get filthy rich

[04:55] <Scott> i think i'll go away for a while.

[04:55] <Scott> nice meeting you, jobli

#02[04:55] * Scott (Scott@ED0186.03C53B.5DC97A.D8B4A8) Quit (Quit: Reason filtered#)

pre gardnerian british neo paganism and practical reconstructionism

Otter> hi Obli

<jobli> hi otter

<jobli> hows things yo

<jobli> :(

<jobli> sigh soigh

<Otter> could be worse

<Otter> how are you doing?

<jobli> ok

<Otter> why the sigh and frown?

<jobli> becuase i was aloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ne

<Otter> ah. well, i'm back now, feel better? :-)

<jobli> somewhat

<jobli> i need to make a website otter

<Otter> for what?

<jobli> a pre-gardnerian british neo-paganism website

<Otter> cool

<jobli> wish i had a more susinct name

<Otter> hmmmm

<Otter> how far back do you go?

<jobli> 1899

<jobli> basicly theres 3 main texts

<jobli> foundational texts that were used by actual practitioners

<jobli> :P

<jobli> they are fairly disperate in purposes though

<jobli> sorry

<jobli> i keep getting distracted

<Otter> in Bonewits' classication system, do you think that would be mesopagan or neopagan?

<jobli> are you familiar with aridia Otter?

<Otter> hmmm, don't think so.

<Otter> not spelled that way, at least

<jobli> sorry

<jobli> aradia

<jobli> :P

<Otter> Aradia is important in Strega

<jobli> whats

<Otter> ah, yes

<Otter> not that we've met

<jobli> bonewits deifintion of mesopagan?

<jobli> i mean aradia the book

<Otter> ah.... Leland?

<jobli> not the (demi) goddess

<jobli> yeah

<Otter> hven't read it, but i'm aware of it

<Otter> Bonewits has three categories, paleopagan for the pre-christian tradition. mesopagan for the earlier revivals. neopagan for the current revival

<Otter> the difference between meso and neo is as much about monotheistic influences as it is about timing

<jobli> basicly it's leland, westlake and seymour

<Otter> not quite sure i follow him. he's got Wicca as neo, though it's mono at the core

<jobli> what are some examples of paths he would class as mesopagan

<Otter> in the early OBOD/ADO liturgy you find references to archangles and whatnot, making it pretty mesopagan

<jobli> becuase all 3 are talking about polythiesm and all 3 predate wicca

<Otter> while the modern currents are more clearly neo

<Otter> more polytheistic, environmentalist, etc

<Otter> it might be worth considering this system while you try to coin a name

<jobli> well i don't think mesopagan is a useful term at all

<jobli> so basicly its a choice between pagan and neo pagan

<Otter> freemasonry, rosicrucianism, early modern druidry, uh....

<Otter> santeria

<jobli> yeah

<Otter> non-bullshit famtrad witchcraft

<jobli> i wouldn't class any of them as particularily pagan at all

<Otter> early modern druidry aka romantic druidry

<jobli> yeah

* Otter nods

<Otter> well, they are and they aren't

<jobli> theres a better case fro druidry

<jobli> for

<jobli> and i guess some for santeria

<Otter> without them, we probalby woudln't have the current revival with it's (occasional) attention to historical accuracy

<jobli> though i'd class it as catholisism

<Otter> yeah, gets pretty muddy there

<Otter> there's a lot of paganism in catholicism

<Otter> all those saints

<Otter> some of whom are pretty clearly pagan deities

<jobli> yeah

<Otter> plus the holidays

<jobli> but only americans would even begin to clasify it as paganism

<Otter> hmmmm

<Otter> i don't know of anyone who classifies it that way

<jobli> fundies

<Otter> american or not

<Otter> maybe. don't talk to them much

<Otter> i'd expect them to say "satanism" rather than "paganism"

<Otter> but the two tend to be synonyms to them

<jobli> seems like most americans don't even classify catholics as christians

<jobli> not just fundies

<jobli> but yeah

<Otter> where did you get that idea?

<jobli> see this is what happens when you start classifyinf freemasons and rosicrucians as pagan

<jobli> you end up talking about christianity

<jobli> from talking to americans

<Otter> lol

<Otter> well, i've lived in the US all my life, and i've never run into that idea

<Otter> well, except form fanatics who classify any sect other than their own as satanic

<jobli> i'd rather talk about paganism :P

<Otter> because they have the ONE TRUE CHRISTIANITY

<jobli> christianity has enough words expended upon it

* Otter nods

<Otter> http://www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.html

<Otter> there's Bonewits article on paleo/neo/meso

<Otter> i dont' think it's too much of a stretch to call rosicrucianism pagan. they've got quite a few bits of egyptian polytheism in their traditions

<Otter> or at least AMORC does

<Otter> most of what i know about rosicrucianism i learned from a friend in that order

<jobli> i think neo pagan is accurate

<jobli> Aradia claims to be a continuation of diana worship

<Otter> one thing you could do is name the revival, and then call it early [whatever] paganism

<jobli> seymour concentrates on recreating the mystery religions

<jobli> westlake and his followers are mostly writing about polythiestic devotion

<Otter> does Aradia have the neo-ancient text problem?

<jobli> you'll have to explain what that it

<jobli> is

<Otter> a reconstructionist cobbles together a tradition out of his own ideas, bits of hte regional traditio he wants to rebuild, hinduism, shamanism, etc

<Otter> then claims he got it all from an ancient text

<Otter> or perhaps from a teacher

<Otter> that no one else has ever seen

<jobli> its from a manuscript leland got from a gypsie informant

<jobli> the manuscript exists at least

* Otter nods

<jobli> its characterised by leland as (what i'd term) a folk survival

<Otter> Diana-worshipping Gypsies?

<jobli> beyond his informant existing and the weight of the evidence being that she did indeed provide the manuscript

<jobli> it's hard to say the truth of the matter

<jobli> though she claims she got it from a 3rd party

<jobli> whether or not it is actually a folk survival isn't of life or death importance (to me)

* Otter nods

<Otter> lol

<jobli> its interesting as early reconstructionism

<Otter> good thing

<jobli> its also the only system out of the 3 with an almost single minded focus on magic

<Otter> yeah. i don't have a problem with that. it annoys the hell out of me though when people muddy the waters for future generations by "grandmothering" their reconstructions

<obli> but yeah

<obli> i don't think wicca has much apprechiation for the prechristian religions some of its followers take from

<obli> or polytheism in general

<Otter> from what i know of it, which may be incomplete/flat out wrong, Gard Wicca doesn't seem to

<Otter> some Wiccans since have dug around a little more, though

<Otter> i tend to see wicca as paganism for monotheists

<obli> i hope so... but it seems the defult posiition in wicca is the gods are masks for the "god and goddess"

* Otter nods

<Otter> and those two are in turn aspects of a single, unknowable, godamajig

<obli> heh

<Otter> so at it's core, it's monotheistic

<Otter> or so it looks to me

<obli> seems like wicca would be an easy fit with theosophicalism

<Otter> hmmm, atm, i can't remember the basic tenents of theosophy

<obli> its basicly the first movement to stumble upon the idea that all religions are true and you just have to puzzle out how to fit them all together

<obli> theres like accended masters and all kinds of other stuff

<obli> but yeah

<obli> oi went to a theosophical meeting once

<obli> but they tried to give me the hard sell

<Otter> yeah?

<obli> yeah join up for the membership

<obli> sorry

<obli> just seening what their latest lectures are

<obli> damn

<obli> missed an interesting one

<obli> alchemy at aoraki

<obli> (the highest mountain in new zealand) also known as mount cook

<Otter> what is their version of the hard sell?

<Otter> do they have some sort of fire and brimstone to threaten people with?

<Otter> or is it more a promise of revelation?

<obli> Objects of the Theosophical Society

<obli> First — To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste, or color.

<obli> Second — To encourage the study of Comparative Religion, Philosophy, and Science.

<obli> Third — To investigate the unexplained laws of Nature and the powers latent in man

<obli> more just salesman ship trying to get us to sign up as members

<obli> but if you do that

<obli> you are forever known as a theosophicalist

<obli> muddies the waters

<Otter> wasn't one of hte founders of theosophy... madame blavatsky? ... rather heaviliy antisemitic?

<obli> weren't almost all occultists antisemitic?

<obli> but yes

<obli> thats a yes

<Otter> dunno, maybe

<Otter> hitler and his buddies certainlyi were

<Otter> evangelism often makes me think about a couple girls who came around to my house a couple decades ago to try to get me to go to their church

<Otter> i asked them some really basic questions about their sect and its beliefs

<Otter> and they didn't have an answer for any of them

<Otter> apparently, the church elders had turned the girls out to spread the good word without first telling them what it was

<obli> how does one be prosemitic?

<obli> other than converting to judism

<obli> well we were at their meeting i guess

<obli> :P

<Otter> wel, you could be born into that tradition and practice it

<Otter> try to advance the status of your people

<Otter> i don't know, is it prosemitic to oppose antisemites?

<obli> when the majority of your people are living under an illfitting judaic worldview

<obli> its hard to help them without refuting it

<obli> or yourself for that matter

<obli> otter ... i don't know

<obli> its less antisemitic at least

<obli> i suspect all antisemites of being nazis

<obli> its a complicated issue

<obli> anyone who revels in antisemitism i automaticly distrust

<obli> anyone who is into hitler i automaticly hate

<Otter> i found this on urbandictionary.com. not particularly authoritiave, but fwiw

<Otter> pro-Semite

<Otter>

<Otter>

<Otter> 1) One who's thoughts and resultant behaviors support and are pursuant to the ideology that:

<Otter> A) The Nation of Israel has a right to exist,

<Otter> B) As a Jewish state it it so choses, and

<Otter> C) In peace and harmony with its neighbors

<Otter> 2) One who - either Jew or Gentile - stands in defiance of oppression against Jews and Judaism in any of its forms: mockery, belittlement, violence, defamation, disparagement etc. and et al.

<obli> but its pretty hard to make any spiritual progress if you are born in a country steeped in christianity if you don't dismantle the worldview inherted from the bible

<obli> but its pretty hard to make any spiritual progress (outside of christianity) if you are born in a country steeped in christianity if you don't dismantle the worldview inherted from the bible

<obli> and even then most christians are anti semitic to various degrees

<Otter> christianity never made sense to me.

<Otter> even when i was eight, i didn't believe

<obli> i didn't when i was 4

<obli> :P

<obli> paganism

<obli> :P

<obli> anyway the point about respect for the prechristian religions (esspecially ones that had direct interaction with roman paganism)

<obli> is i think i'm moving in the direction of practical reconstructionism

<Otter> is that from strict traditionalism?

<obli> no

<obli> its more like an aditive traditionalism

<obli> building from the varifiable

<Otter> what's varifiable?

<obli> archeology largely

<Otter> okay

<obli> some comparitive religion... but not just taking from other religions willy nilly... just using them as better models (than christianty) for understanding how prechristian polytheism (in the roman empire and its accendants) functioned

<obli> there was alot of regional diffrence in forms of worship

<obli> and individual understanding of the nature of divinity

<Otter> probably a fair amount of diversity even in the same village

<obli> it was probably pretty close to the situation in contempary japan

<obli> - the buddhism

<Otter> not sure i follow

<Otter> but i'm falling asleep

<obli> shintoism is based around various local shrines

* Otter nods

<obli> and theres a few larger movements

<obli> which i think orphism is comparible to

<obli> and the guru phenomonom... which is pretty universal really

<Otter> i agree about shintoism or hinduism being similar. budhism, not so much

<obli> itterinant fortune tellers and that

<obli> - the buddhism = minus the buddhism

<Otter> ah, okay

<Otter> i missed thepunctuation

<Otter> makes sense now

<obli> heh

<obli> no worries

<Otter> i'm going to head for bed while i'm still able

<obli> no worries

<Otter> have a good night

<obli> hopefully i'll catch you again soonish

<obli> you too

what is it about echo the dolphin

[04:53] <kraed> i remember enjoying ecco as a kid

[04:53] <kraed> and everyone says it's a terrible game

[04:54] <playingtrompet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU8HrO7XuiE jmickle

[04:54]  * bladder_x [Title] MACINTOSH PLUS - リサフランク420 / 現代のコンピュー - YouTube

[04:54] <Dajhail> i could never stand ecco

[04:55] <playingtrompet> its becuase it is sarevok

[04:55] <Dajhail> but everyone else LOVES it

[04:55] <playingtrompet> but it has a very unique asthetic

[04:55] <playingtrompet> well

[04:55] <playingtrompet> it encaplses a unique asthetic

[04:55] <playingtrompet> that a few games have

[04:56] <playingtrompet> sort of a spartian lonely feeling

[04:56] <kraed> i love ecco because it is sarevok

[04:56] <kraed> i do think games that are about exploration are at their finest when you feel isolated and alone

[04:56] <playingtrompet> of being lost in a sprawing slightly out of scale world

[04:57] <playingtrompet> its a big nausiating

[04:57] <playingtrompet> like megaman legands

[04:57] <playingtrompet> i think armoured core 1 has the same feeling

[04:57] <playingtrompet> a bit

[04:57] <playingtrompet> nausiating

[04:58] <playingtrompet> i think

[04:58] <playingtrompet> what all those games have in common

[04:59] <playingtrompet> is they don't make much sense

[04:59] <playingtrompet> and they don't care

[04:59] <playingtrompet> like you'll randomly run across non enemy npcs in weird places sometimes

[05:00] <playingtrompet> but the games have no real desire to drive foward a plot

[05:00] <playingtrompet> becuase they don't really have one

---

[05:01] <playingtrompet> sotn has it a bit

[05:01] <playingtrompet> also

[05:01] <playingtrompet> most of the metriods

[05:01] <playingtrompet> alot more than sotn

[05:01] <playingtrompet> becuase at least sotn has menues to take your mind off it

[05:02] <playingtrompet> metriod sometimes has those screens that scroll vertically for ages

05:04] <playingtrompet> sonic kind of has it too

[05:04] <playingtrompet> esspecially sonic 3

[05:04] <playingtrompet> where you get those little interludes with knuckles

[05:04] <playingtrompet> but just the massivly sprawling levels

[05:04] <playingtrompet> that scroll all over the place