on understanding the gods

<obli> they "invented" diana

<obli> as in

<obli> she was a roman goddess

<obli> who aquired greek attributes

<locky> just like in Afghanistan, they keep troops and pretend they fight drug dealers

<locky> but in fact, US military are drug dealers

<isIs> but the moon goddess was already there obli

<locky> rasto

<obli> that depends upon your point of view as to the meaning of tradition and the identity of the gods isIs

<isIs> obli:  i am saying the moon goddess was there before the romans

<obli> and your stance on archetypes and cultural specificity and alot of other things

<isIs> she has always been there

<obli> yes but she wassn't recognised as diana before the romans

<isIs> the ALL has always been there

<isIs> so the romans gave her a name   ?

<rasto> locky i don't believe all US military is involved in drug trafficking

<rasto> locky some of it is

<rasto> In My Opinion

<Gecko> THAT locky AKA LOCK is a WORLD FAMOUS LIAR AND IGNORANT.. check what IRC-ICQ BLOGS SAY ABOUT HIM: http://icqchristianity.blogspot.it/2013_12_01_archive.html

<Gecko> what an idiot...

<rasto> Gecko- you can forge logs

<isIs> yup

<isIs> yet he claims who the idiots are

<obli> isis diana isn't just "architypal moon goddess" in my opinion, her identity as diana imbues her with a history

<locky> are you in Italy now Gecko

<locky> or thats proxy

<rasto> can you get to mirch through proxy?

<isIs> i get you obli .......... i wish i didnt

<obli> that informs her character

<Gecko> THAT locky AKA LOCK is a WORLD FAMOUS LIAR AND IGNORANT.. check what IRC-ICQ BLOGS SAY ABOUT HIM: http://icqchristianity.blogspot.it/2013_12_01_archive.html

<Gecko> yes you can rasto

<obli> to understand the gods i like to look at the history of how they have been viewed isIs, which means going all the way back right up to now, then using my judgement to discern which accounts of them have been given by people who had a genuine understanding of their character

<isIs> yes obli

<isIs> but lets cut the romans out if you want to chat to me

<locky> rasto google CIA drug trafficking, the need money to pay for covert ops

<obli> i'm a romano-celtic syncreticist so thats pretty impossible isIs

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<isIs> aaahhhh now it makes sense obli

<locky> they are in Afghanistan for one trivilal reason - heroin

<Gecko> rasto google lock christianity ...

<locky> and since NATO invasion, the production of heroin skyrocketed 40 times, must be coincidence

<Gecko> ah ah ah ah

<isIs> so what are your views on Boudica  obli   ?

<rasto> locky i know that ever since USA military came to afganistan the heroin production went back up

<rasto> Gecko i am reading it

<locky> 40fold rasto

<Gecko>  shirk (Arabic: shiirk) refers to the sin of practicing idolatry or polytheism,

<obli> pro boudica

<locky> 40fold up

<isIs> but what do you think of her obli

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<isIs> she was a hero to me

<isIs> a true warrior

<obli> yeah

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<obli> you'd have to be a nutcase frothing at the mouth fox news type to be anti-boudica

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<locky> lol ISIS Syria, lock is Pakistan

<locky> Gecko you are an idiot

<Gecko> obli you are feeding islamist...

<isIs> i am british mofo

<isIs> so she is a teue warrior in your eyes obli   ?

<rasto> Gecko islamabad?

<isIs> true

<obli> yes

<isIs> ok

<rasto> how do you access mirch through a proxy?

<locky> rasto dont you buy everything they say, they ve written me a bio

<Gecko>  shirk (Arabic: shiirk) refers to the sin of practicing idolatry or polytheism, i.e. the naming or using of anyone or anything other than the moon god ... so why an islamist can use the nick ISIS as it declared cause she/he likes  the ancienT egyptian God? Is she/he making an HUGE sin that can be seriuosly punished by sharia laws ..---or DOES  ISIS meaning something also in ISLAM? google : ISIS Syria... 

<isIs> obli:  but she caused an uprising for the romans

<rasto> locky even if you are a muslim there is some truth to what you say

<locky> Im not a muslim Im an atheist rasto

<obli> yes isis

<obli> hense romano-celtic

<rasto> Okay locky

<Guest_403_997> muslims are liars

<Guest_403_997> taqiyya

<Gecko> from a saudi's vies yes rasto

<Gecko> wiev*

<Guest_403_997> i wouldnt belive any of them

<Guest_403_997> especially if they tell u they not a muslim

<isIs> ok obli  maybe i was a little wrong on you

<locky> rasto war with china is very close, as chinese yuan replaces the dollar, there will be some provocation they will blame on China

<locky> to make china look bad

<Gecko> but than why not adimmiting..instead of telling anyone that he is from Russia but he cant speak russian?

<Guest_403_997> lala immorte is a full on muslim and he claims he is an atheist

<locky> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-19/chinese-dont-want-dollars-anymore-they-want-gold-londons-gold-vaults-are-empty-why

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<Gecko> its called TAQQYA.. the same that ISIS does... rasto

<gdawg> there will not be a war with china

<sokie> wreck the halls!

<Guest_403_997> but hes like a leader al qaeda

<obli> basicly isis in order to reconstruct celtic practice the era of roman occupation provides the clearest material

<gdawg> Chine relies on western economies for it's GDP

<obli> by a long shot

<gdawg> 60% of all China jobs are manufacturing

<isIs> well thats your path obli

<gdawg> without these 60% of China are without work

<obli> and the most intelligable systems becuase the romans left alot of written material

<isIs> so obli  what is pan to you  ?

<gdawg> which mean that China will loss money

<gdawg> they will recieve very liitle on tax etc

<gdawg> let us not forget how America is nuked up to the eyeballs

<Guest_403_997> some of them are big conmen

<Gecko> and warlords

<sokie> what can you tax on those minimal wages?

<Guest_403_997> ya

<Guest_403_997> u right

<gdawg> and there is a reason why the USA spends 25x more than anny other country on military

<obli> pan is all of nature, but i hew most closely to the edwardian view that the return of pan will herald the rebirth of the gods

the power of moral panics

<obli> i got a book today
<isIs> you and gdawg  make sense  
<obli> ccalled
<isIs> ?
<sokie> sorry if i confused anyone by accidently making sense every now and then
<locky> ever heard of US strategy "pivot to asia" and why tilt toward Asia and deploy the military and zero in asia, because china india and russia as the threat to dollar system
<obli> unbroken curses:hidden source of trouble in the christian's life
<isIs> no sokie  its fine i like it
<locky> those economies india china booming, and most of the world population live in those countries
<isIs> broken curses   hhhmmm
<locky> lotso f natural resources concentrate there
<obli> i find these monotheistic moral panic books great
<obli> they assert the spiritual power of all they decry

the holographic universe it trying to ruin my fun

<+obli> science is trying to ruin magic
<+obli> boo on science
<&IronMaiden> never
<&IronMaiden> science and magick are only two different sides of the same medaile
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<+obli> are you guys familiar with the concept of fatland :P
<+obli> flatland
<+obli> not america
<+obli> ;P
<&IronMaiden> do you mean Terry Pratchett's books :D
<&IronMaiden> or are you talking abou tthe nice math idea?
<+obli> yeah
<+obli> the story about the 2d world
<&IronMaiden> and what is with it?
<+obli> we if scientists prove we are all holograms of 2d information when they fire up their magic science machine next year
<+obli> then evocation becomes logicly explainible :P
<+obli> the 3d actor intruding into our hypersphere :P
<+obli> and magic is ruined... its just science now :('
* &IronMaiden shakes head about this argumentation
<&IronMaiden> and btw...what "magic science machine " are you talking about????
<+obli> we'll all be stuck as scientists :(
<+obli> https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/q71/s720x720/1502533_485874224866048_1654519644_n.jpg
<&IronMaiden> hahaha....
<+obli> scientists are trying to ruin my fun IronMaiden :(
<+obli> with lasers
<&IronMaiden> I don't see how an laser interferrometer can ruin any fun at all....
* &IronMaiden sighs
<+obli> by making stuff make sense
<+obli> i'd sooner die than leave the strangeness
<&IronMaiden> if SENSE distroys your fun then something is wrong with your programming anyway :P
<+obli> finally i have a chance to use that phrase
<&IronMaiden> no offence meant....
<+obli> whats so great about the "truth"...
<+obli> what happens when we all know the "truth"
<+obli> we all have no option but to agree
<+obli> the end of individualism
<+obli> the end of culture
<+obli> the last man
* &IronMaiden sighs
<&IronMaiden> you underestimate nature

million dollar game idea

<obli> i had a nightmare about game design
<RPG> in a material world
<RPG> what nightmare
<obli> you are a mechanised corpse slave kept as a servent in a secret workshop under a fancy hotel by the engineer, one day you regain your self awareness, the engineer wants to dispose of you but his daughter is in love with you, you must ensure you are not in a position where the engineer can kill you and attempt to escape to the upper stories making alliances with people higher in the pecking order of the hotel in order to get the engineer expelled so you can live there with access to his animating generator without the threat of him doing you in
<obli> dreams r free
<RPG> how's that a nightmare
<obli> everyone asks that
<RPG> it's a million dollars idea
<obli> heh
<EDC> how does a nightmare about game design even work as a dream?
<obli> the gfx in the dream are bad
<obli> like ps2 lvl
<EDC> wow, that is deep
<obli> quake 2 engine dream
<Dajhail> ps2 had some good grafx sometimes
<EDC> its like you subconscious is selling you a million dollar game idea
<Dajhail> q2 is n64 level
<EDC> I wonder if it redeems it in dream dollars

on demi gods and saints

<obliv> Otter do you put any stock in the concept of the "demi god"
<@Otter> not really
<@Otter> not as an actual being
<obliv> i mean as something attainible
<@Otter> ah, you mean demigod as in a human who attains godhood?
<obliv> yeah
<obliv> well
<obliv> demi godhood
<@Otter> to me, that's a god
<@Otter> near as i can tell, all my gods went that route
<obliv> :P
<@Otter> the classical sense of a human-god hybrid doensn't fit in my cosmology because my gods are gods by virtue of their achievement rather than because they have god genes
<obliv> heh
<obliv> god genes
<@Otter> what is your take on demigods?
<obliv> i'd say its when you attain a level of acknoledged purpose that it cannot be distroy'd by the acts of men... i.e. where you are going to achive the same world altering effect weather you are alive or "martyred" (to use an incredibly loaded term)
<obliv> but you still care about living as a human
<obliv> fulfiling you base needs and such
<@Otter> so a demigod is about the same as a living saint?
<obliv> i'd have to have a deeper understanding of the meaning of the word saint
<obliv> i think thats more to do with dicipline
<obliv> or disipline is a componant
<obliv> which is not necciciarily a componant of being a demi god
<obliv> like
<obliv> embodying a path
<obliv> Otter
<@Otter> embodying a path = saint?
<obliv> seems like it
<@Otter> how do demigods reach demigoodhood?
<obliv> single mindedness?
<obliv> :P
<@Otter> okay, what exactly do you mean by "acknowledged purpose"?  acknowledged by whom?
<obliv> i mean by society at large
<obliv> once you penetrate the collective unconsiousness :P
<@Otter> hmmm.  is brittany spears a demigoddess?
<@Otter> patron of corporate music and selling out?
<obliv> i hope not
<obliv> kurt cobain is :P
<obliv> tupac is :P
<@Otter> what is the distinction?
<obliv> authenticity i guess
<@Otter> okay
<obliv> :P
<@Otter> going back to your question, then, no
<obliv> heh
<@Otter> i don't put any stock in the concept of demigods
<@Otter> being an influential artist is a long way from godhood
<obliv> its about making yourself into something beyond the usual
* @Otter nods
<@Otter> i agree such people exist, i just woudn't call them demigods
<@Otter> too much semantic conflict with my cosmology

Art and Religion

<betelgeuse> i don't understand what aspect of music is deemed wrong or evil for it to be prohibited and classed as detrimentary to a belief system
<oblivion> religion is preformance art and islam can't handle the competition
<betelgeuse> i know that in Buddhism the senses are classed as Maya (illusion) and therefore a distraction from attaining enlightenment
<oblivion> its an acknoledgement of the spiritual power of art
<oblivion> their fear
<Yusuf> Fear ?
<oblivion> fear of art
<betelgeuse> i agree with you about the spiritual power of art
<oblivion> art is the parent of religion - Deguchi Onisaburo

various stuff about politics and religion etc

<obli> politics are eternal... islam and christianity needlessly complicate matters... politics are never going to disappear.... islam and christianity? hope springs eternal

<kyanite> so ur saying they mix religion with unrelated issues scott ?

<Scott> obli, everything evolves constantly

<Scott> every individual is a huge confusion of facts and feelings, kyanite

<Scott> and i don't disparage generalizing facts to find principles

<obli> we've seen how islam and christianity have evolved now Scott... they havn't solved the probelms they obstensivly exist to solve... they've agrivated them and added new ones :P

<kyanite> thats an interesting perspective scott

<Scott> but i do think it's a bad idea to pick your favoirte poison (religion) and blame "them" for all the world's problems

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<Scott> or any of the problems, really

<Scott> because the world is a vastly complicated web

<kyanite> i was referring to the people who misinterprete it scott

* tobi sets mode: +l 52

<Scott> and i do see your point, kyanite

<obli> i blame the current coersive religions that dominate both society and the religious dialogue for the spiritual vacum that exists in the modern world...

<Scott> but even if those two concepts were to instantly vanish leaving all the rest...

<obli> they are incapible for providing meaning and obvious faliures at creating a moral enviroment

<Scott> well, yes, there would be huge changes, upheavals, whatever... but things would end up generally the same.

<kyanite> there does seem to be something wrong with that system, i agree obli

<obli> they have discredited mans spiritual quest in the eyes of most people

<Muslimani> Welcome Yusuf Brother

<Muslimani> )

<kyanite> i wonder if similar institutions would replace christianity and islam if they were to vanish

<Guest_495> atheism is mans spiritual quest

<Scott> there are many good people who are muslim or christian

<Scott> and what about the pope lately, eh?

<obli> kyanite i think you would see a rise in atheism and paganism

<kyanite> i mean does religion fill a common void in people

<Guest_495> god is not a moron who wants to eat shrooms with you

<kyanite> yes there is already quite a rise in atheism obli

<Yusuf> Thank You Muslimani :)

<Scott> you have a good point there, kyanite (religion/void)

<kyanite> im just curious though if religion somehow appeals to a certain kind of person, if you would find common traits in religious people

<kyanite> i wonder yeah scott, come to think of it

<Scott> to answer that, you need to examine the effects of media on people statistically

<obli> i think religion is common in all people

<kyanite> media plays a very big and biased role yes

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<nili> there was pagan beliefs long before the abrahamic ones

<Scott> media is owned by the same people who control law, money, and religion

<kyanite> do you think religion is an inate human thing obli ?

<obli> that was one of the (minor) things that lead to me abandoning atheism. dawkins and pullman were clearly expousing spiritual beleifs even if they didn;t want to admit it to themselves

<Kelintasa> why aren't you calling Yusuf "prince" Muslimani? did you have a lover's fight?

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<kyanite> i would agree that media is part of the the network scott

<kyanite> so im curious in what you said obli

<obli> not that my atheism was contingent upon the words of dawkins or his ilk... i was an atheist long before he claimed the spotlight

<kyanite> do you think religion is an inate need in the human race ?

<obli> though the deferance to his authority amongst atheists i found quite worrying

<Scott> isn't there a part of the human brain that's somehow related to "religion" or "spirituality" or something like that?

* tobi sets mode: +l 50

<obli> i dunno i'f i'd say -need- kyanite

<kyanite> thats an interesting question scott

<obli> i think its just inate

<Scott> i know i've heard something like that

<kyanite> hmm

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<Scott> can't recall the facts

<kyanite> i hadnt really thought of it like that before but yes its a high possibility i would say

<kyanite> that there is a basic human condition that religion has a way of filling

<Scott> well...

<kyanite> some people are very fanatical about it

<Scott> i do agree with you that there are big problems associated with religion

<obli> i think its more the current monotheistic religions have a way of suppressing it kyanite

<kyanite> interesting take

<obli> i think they strangle most of their followers desire for spiritual growth

<obli> "i've accepted jesus- mission accomplished"

<kyanite> i have noticed that individual thinking is not encouraged yes

<Scott> religion is advertised as "filling" that need, but is often used to control people for less ideal purposes

<kyanite> i think it also gives people a sense of belonging to something

<obli> "i pray 5 times i day - i have achived the highest form of spirituality"

<Scott> social fulfillment

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<Scott> yes

<kyanite> yes, they belong to something, get instant friends etc

<Scott> that's a big thing i see in my area

<kyanite> they become part of something

<Scott> lonesome people build a new ego around religious groops, driven by a need to belong

<Scott> yes

<Scott> i think my mother's that way a bit

<kyanite> i suppose it provides some people with hope and a refuge in some sense

<Scott> yeah - fear of death

<obli> thats why i don't dismiss "magic" out of hand... done right "magic" rituals can be effective spirtual exercises

<Scott> it's deeply ingraned in American society

<Scott> God and the Devil

<Scott> Heaven and Hell

<kyanite> they do play on the death thing quite a bit yes

<Scott> and miss the real salvation

<Scott> which is more psychological than spiritual in my lexicon

<kyanite> i cant dismiss magic as nonsense obli, there could well be something there

<obli> i don't see how people can beleive they are owe'd additional life...they're lucky to get one

<Scott> that's islam and christianity i mean (in my last two sentences)

<kyanite> also perhaps a need for people to compete scott

<kyanite> like in sports you have various teams and people are crazy about it

<kyanite> because the muslim christian thing has been going on so long now

<Scott> ahhhh i'd never thought of it that way

<kyanite> i was talking to my mother last night actually, i used to be very heavily involved in drugs

<Scott> yeah?

<kyanite> and i was teling her about this guy who was trying to convert me to his church

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<kyanite> and it struck me that even though both me and him were so different

<kyanite> we were both trying to fill a void

<kyanite> lol

<obli> you can't be pro drugs and anti religion... or vica versa :P

<Scott> heh

<Scott> see? there's my problem with obli - everything is "this" or "that"

<Scott> "black" or "white"

<Scott> "right" or "wrong"

<Scott> the world just doesn't work that way

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<kyanite> oh i dont obli that well to be honest

<Scott> i agree with a lot of things obli says

<Scott> but that razor he uses to cut lines is too sharp

<obli> i'm saying drugs and religion are the same thing

* tobi sets mode: +l 48

<obli> a method of producing an altered state

<Scott> you might as well say Everything is the same thing

<kyanite> something to that effect yes obli

<kyanite> some sort of escape or something im not sure

<Scott> well, i love the buddhist concept of "ego" for this

<obli> there is something sacred about altered states

<kyanite> i suppose one could liken anything to anything true scott lol

<obli> what do you think the worship of dionysus was about

<Scott> our brains are built to do that, kyanite

<kyanite> they do have some interesting perspectives scott, the buddhists

<kyanite> that could be yes

<kyanite> im not familiar with dionysus obli

<obli> the greek god of altered states kyanite

<obli> god of wine

<obli> and theatre

<obli> and maddness

<kyanite> oh right

<kyanite> so the greeks were well aware of that

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<kyanite> in that case

<kyanite> the sumerians probably as well

<Guest4671398> baccus and dionysus..Beethoven's 7th symphony last mouvemet is a celebration of that rite.Tha's why islamists ban most of the classical and moder music as a sin

<kyanite> i think in islam you find the same thing as in christianity , different faiths within the religion

<kyanite> some radicals and some arent

<kyanite> what strikes me as quite fascinating is the similarity between the essense of the two religions, yet all the fighting and disagreeing lol

<Guest4671398> John Coltrane the famous jazz player was banned to play a piece in a concert in Hungary during the socialist era, casu was called "religious andantino".

<obli> art is the parent of religion - Deguchi Onisaburo

<obli> religion is preformance art

<obli> theatre was origionally a religious rite

EA Koetting is a hack fraud

<obli> hey yo
<MysticTurt|e> allo
<obli> you ever read any EA koetting?
<MysticTurt|e> no can not say i have as i heard is useless info
<obli> thats my experiance :P
<obli> i read his book on evocation
<MysticTurt|e> was it crap?
<obli> yeah
<obli> his chapter that dealt with gods had finger waving äncient warnings" that if you summoned the olympian deityies they would rain destuction upon the earth
<MysticTurt|e> no surprise then lol
<obli> entirely unrefrenced
<MysticTurt|e> wow thats just pure bs lol
<obli> like.. i'll consider anything if you can back it up with some president
<obli> precident
<MysticTurt|e> aye
<obli> but people making shit up off the cuff is pretty offencive.. thats why everything aimed at the occult community since at least 1960 is basicly worthless
<obli> :P
<MysticTurt|e> i would have to agree with ya on that
<obli> but yeah koetting has a little cult forum online where his disciples all big up each other about what great magicians they are :P
<MysticTurt|e> ahhh makes sense now then lol
<obli> hes basicly running a mail order scam... you seen his current enterprise?
<obli> http://www.becomealivinggod.com/
<obli> :P
<MysticTurt|e> omgosh soooo lame and unreal :(
<obli> i didn't notice the other person johnlennon chose to shout out as a "real magician" was levays daughter
<obli> ... but crowley is the fruad :P
<MysticTurt|e> lol