various stuff about politics and religion etc

<obli> politics are eternal... islam and christianity needlessly complicate matters... politics are never going to disappear.... islam and christianity? hope springs eternal

<kyanite> so ur saying they mix religion with unrelated issues scott ?

<Scott> obli, everything evolves constantly

<Scott> every individual is a huge confusion of facts and feelings, kyanite

<Scott> and i don't disparage generalizing facts to find principles

<obli> we've seen how islam and christianity have evolved now Scott... they havn't solved the probelms they obstensivly exist to solve... they've agrivated them and added new ones :P

<kyanite> thats an interesting perspective scott

<Scott> but i do think it's a bad idea to pick your favoirte poison (religion) and blame "them" for all the world's problems

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<Scott> or any of the problems, really

<Scott> because the world is a vastly complicated web

<kyanite> i was referring to the people who misinterprete it scott

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<Scott> and i do see your point, kyanite

<obli> i blame the current coersive religions that dominate both society and the religious dialogue for the spiritual vacum that exists in the modern world...

<Scott> but even if those two concepts were to instantly vanish leaving all the rest...

<obli> they are incapible for providing meaning and obvious faliures at creating a moral enviroment

<Scott> well, yes, there would be huge changes, upheavals, whatever... but things would end up generally the same.

<kyanite> there does seem to be something wrong with that system, i agree obli

<obli> they have discredited mans spiritual quest in the eyes of most people

<Muslimani> Welcome Yusuf Brother

<Muslimani> )

<kyanite> i wonder if similar institutions would replace christianity and islam if they were to vanish

<Guest_495> atheism is mans spiritual quest

<Scott> there are many good people who are muslim or christian

<Scott> and what about the pope lately, eh?

<obli> kyanite i think you would see a rise in atheism and paganism

<kyanite> i mean does religion fill a common void in people

<Guest_495> god is not a moron who wants to eat shrooms with you

<kyanite> yes there is already quite a rise in atheism obli

<Yusuf> Thank You Muslimani :)

<Scott> you have a good point there, kyanite (religion/void)

<kyanite> im just curious though if religion somehow appeals to a certain kind of person, if you would find common traits in religious people

<kyanite> i wonder yeah scott, come to think of it

<Scott> to answer that, you need to examine the effects of media on people statistically

<obli> i think religion is common in all people

<kyanite> media plays a very big and biased role yes

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<nili> there was pagan beliefs long before the abrahamic ones

<Scott> media is owned by the same people who control law, money, and religion

<kyanite> do you think religion is an inate human thing obli ?

<obli> that was one of the (minor) things that lead to me abandoning atheism. dawkins and pullman were clearly expousing spiritual beleifs even if they didn;t want to admit it to themselves

<Kelintasa> why aren't you calling Yusuf "prince" Muslimani? did you have a lover's fight?

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<kyanite> i would agree that media is part of the the network scott

<kyanite> so im curious in what you said obli

<obli> not that my atheism was contingent upon the words of dawkins or his ilk... i was an atheist long before he claimed the spotlight

<kyanite> do you think religion is an inate need in the human race ?

<obli> though the deferance to his authority amongst atheists i found quite worrying

<Scott> isn't there a part of the human brain that's somehow related to "religion" or "spirituality" or something like that?

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<obli> i dunno i'f i'd say -need- kyanite

<kyanite> thats an interesting question scott

<obli> i think its just inate

<Scott> i know i've heard something like that

<kyanite> hmm

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<Scott> can't recall the facts

<kyanite> i hadnt really thought of it like that before but yes its a high possibility i would say

<kyanite> that there is a basic human condition that religion has a way of filling

<Scott> well...

<kyanite> some people are very fanatical about it

<Scott> i do agree with you that there are big problems associated with religion

<obli> i think its more the current monotheistic religions have a way of suppressing it kyanite

<kyanite> interesting take

<obli> i think they strangle most of their followers desire for spiritual growth

<obli> "i've accepted jesus- mission accomplished"

<kyanite> i have noticed that individual thinking is not encouraged yes

<Scott> religion is advertised as "filling" that need, but is often used to control people for less ideal purposes

<kyanite> i think it also gives people a sense of belonging to something

<obli> "i pray 5 times i day - i have achived the highest form of spirituality"

<Scott> social fulfillment

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<Scott> yes

<kyanite> yes, they belong to something, get instant friends etc

<Scott> that's a big thing i see in my area

<kyanite> they become part of something

<Scott> lonesome people build a new ego around religious groops, driven by a need to belong

<Scott> yes

<Scott> i think my mother's that way a bit

<kyanite> i suppose it provides some people with hope and a refuge in some sense

<Scott> yeah - fear of death

<obli> thats why i don't dismiss "magic" out of hand... done right "magic" rituals can be effective spirtual exercises

<Scott> it's deeply ingraned in American society

<Scott> God and the Devil

<Scott> Heaven and Hell

<kyanite> they do play on the death thing quite a bit yes

<Scott> and miss the real salvation

<Scott> which is more psychological than spiritual in my lexicon

<kyanite> i cant dismiss magic as nonsense obli, there could well be something there

<obli> i don't see how people can beleive they are owe'd additional life...they're lucky to get one

<Scott> that's islam and christianity i mean (in my last two sentences)

<kyanite> also perhaps a need for people to compete scott

<kyanite> like in sports you have various teams and people are crazy about it

<kyanite> because the muslim christian thing has been going on so long now

<Scott> ahhhh i'd never thought of it that way

<kyanite> i was talking to my mother last night actually, i used to be very heavily involved in drugs

<Scott> yeah?

<kyanite> and i was teling her about this guy who was trying to convert me to his church

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<kyanite> and it struck me that even though both me and him were so different

<kyanite> we were both trying to fill a void

<kyanite> lol

<obli> you can't be pro drugs and anti religion... or vica versa :P

<Scott> heh

<Scott> see? there's my problem with obli - everything is "this" or "that"

<Scott> "black" or "white"

<Scott> "right" or "wrong"

<Scott> the world just doesn't work that way

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<kyanite> oh i dont obli that well to be honest

<Scott> i agree with a lot of things obli says

<Scott> but that razor he uses to cut lines is too sharp

<obli> i'm saying drugs and religion are the same thing

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<obli> a method of producing an altered state

<Scott> you might as well say Everything is the same thing

<kyanite> something to that effect yes obli

<kyanite> some sort of escape or something im not sure

<Scott> well, i love the buddhist concept of "ego" for this

<obli> there is something sacred about altered states

<kyanite> i suppose one could liken anything to anything true scott lol

<obli> what do you think the worship of dionysus was about

<Scott> our brains are built to do that, kyanite

<kyanite> they do have some interesting perspectives scott, the buddhists

<kyanite> that could be yes

<kyanite> im not familiar with dionysus obli

<obli> the greek god of altered states kyanite

<obli> god of wine

<obli> and theatre

<obli> and maddness

<kyanite> oh right

<kyanite> so the greeks were well aware of that

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<kyanite> in that case

<kyanite> the sumerians probably as well

<Guest4671398> baccus and dionysus..Beethoven's 7th symphony last mouvemet is a celebration of that rite.Tha's why islamists ban most of the classical and moder music as a sin

<kyanite> i think in islam you find the same thing as in christianity , different faiths within the religion

<kyanite> some radicals and some arent

<kyanite> what strikes me as quite fascinating is the similarity between the essense of the two religions, yet all the fighting and disagreeing lol

<Guest4671398> John Coltrane the famous jazz player was banned to play a piece in a concert in Hungary during the socialist era, casu was called "religious andantino".

<obli> art is the parent of religion - Deguchi Onisaburo

<obli> religion is preformance art

<obli> theatre was origionally a religious rite