gods and politics

[01:50] <Otter> i don't think we can really understand where the gods are

[01:50] <Otter> or what they are

[01:50] <Otter> not from here, anyway

[01:51] <Verde> they are a lil like the fey.....they have a different perspective

[01:51] <Otter> but how do they interact with our level of  reality?

[01:52] <obli> are the gods all the same thing?

[01:52] <obli> maybe from our perspective only

[01:52] <Verde> like I'm sure exactly

[01:52] <Otter> it doesn't seem to me that they're interested in ruling our world

[01:52] <Otter> and i'm not sure if they could if they wanted to

[01:52] <Verde> I've had to tell spirits that humans have to sleep and to please be quiet

[01:53] <Otter> no they aren't obli

[01:53] <obli> ruling how?

[01:53] <obli> the gods are apolitical

[01:54] <obli> how can something apolitical rule men? subtly or bluntly

[01:54] <Otter> wise of them

[01:54] <obli> definitely not in a direct and effective manner

[01:55] <Otter> they could, for instance, strike down anyone who vents  CFCs

[01:55] <obli> supposedly the neo-platonists argued the gods don't need men's sacrifices... they are for our benefit

[01:56] <Otter> i go along with that

[01:56] <Otter> i don't think they're like tinkerbell

[01:56] <Otter> dependent on our belief for their existence

[01:56] <obli> you could extrapolate that to the entire relationship :P

[01:56] <obli> i agree

[01:57] <Otter> extrapoliate what?

[01:57] <obli> supposedly the neo-platonists argued the gods don't need men's sacrifices... they are for our benefit

[02:00] <Verde> dang now my body wants sleep and there is a good discussion.......be well all

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[02:01] <obli> as in they probably aren't going to step in and manifest themselves in the houses of parliament :P

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[02:01] <Otter> i don't really think the gods exist for our benefit, thoguh

[02:01] <Otter> the gods i work with are on their own journeys

[02:02] <obli> they are for our benefit = the act of sacrifice is for our benefit

[02:02] <obli> not the gods are for our benefit... though they are to our benefit

[02:02] <Otter> i imagine they benefit from workign with me, much as a teacher benefits from  working with his students

[02:02] <Otter> ah

[02:02] <Otter> that makes more sense

02:08] <obli> i think a god is anything which holds power over the lives of men and they are helpless to combat

[02:10] <Otter> what power does Brighid hold over my life?

[02:11] <Otter> or Bel or the Cailleach?

[02:12] <obli> wish i could tell you man

[02:12] <obli> i don't know enough about them sorry

[02:17] <Otter> any god, then

[02:17] <Otter> i mentioned those three becuase they're the main ones i work with

[02:22] <obli> to make my point i'm going to use blunt examples... obviously they are more nuanced than this...

[02:23] <obli> but take dionysus.. god of altered states... once you have downed the intoxicant... how it effects you is out of your hands

[02:23] <obli> out of the hands of any mortal really

[02:24] <obli> people might be able to intervene to save you from dying... but the trip is happening regardless

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[02:26] <obli> or superficially different case, there are people who would lay down their lives for justice right?

[02:26] <obli> there are those who would do the same for civilisation

[02:26] <obli> they value it more than their lives

[02:26] <obli> hi chrism

[02:28] <obli> if the ocean wants to take you there's not much you can do... it's time of having power over you may be short (unless you are a sailor) but it's pretty decisive

[02:28] <Otter> so you mean forces of nature

[02:29] <obli> i don't know if higher ideals count as forces of nature

[02:29] <obli> but yes

[02:29] <Otter> right

[02:29] <obli> what else is paganism but nature worship

[02:30] <Otter> it is strict adherence to the traditions of our ancestors, you fluffbunny

[02:30] <Otter> ;-)

[02:31] <obli> as if the two are mutually exclusive ;P

[02:31] <chrism> wow

[02:31] <Otter> i could probably get some people to argue that if i started in the right place

[02:31] <obli> probably

[02:31] <chrism> my connection here didnt die

[02:32] <chrism> morning otter :)

[02:32] <obli> some gods are just weird as well....

[02:32] <Otter> wb chrism

[02:32] <obli> Diana for example

[02:32] <obli> that's what makes polytheism interesting

[02:33] <obli> they have analogous power to the ocean or justice or a drug trip

[02:33] <obli> but in the domain of magic

[02:33] <obli> it is for mystics to ponder

[02:34] <obli> :P

02:37] <Otter> i'm not following

[02:39] <obli> i think he's suprised his connection is good

[02:41] <Otter> i meant i'm not following <obli> Diana for example ... <obli> it is for mystics to ponder

[02:42] <obli> Diana as goddess of magic, in trinity with hecate and such

[02:43] <Otter> has power over mortals doing magic?

[02:45] <obli> her power over magic... like Athenas over civilisation, Dionysus's over altered states and Poseidon's over the sea

[02:47] <obli> bears mystic contemplation as to what this means about the nature of magic... amongst other things

[02:48] <Otter> sometimes i think that the greek and roman gods are completely different from the gods of the norse, germans, and celts

[02:48] <Otter> a different type of thing

[02:49] <obli> the celts made them play together

Hero of the Field

You touched my waxen face
All activity in the now
had already slipped away
when you set foot in this sunken field
your calves were deep in cold mud
red and white were your markers
I pulled myself down
away from plaintive offerings
to where no breath touched
you realised too late
the nature of flesh
lesser manifestation
of prayer to night
and though you were not lost
inside your frame
you were gripped by the terror
and stumbled back
to the sympathy of familiar altars.

Why the theology of Ernest westlake and the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry is a good bedrock to build on.

Westlake is important not just because he initiated the first organised pagan revival in the english speaking world but because of his choice of sources, Tragedy and Cult.

His drawing from the tragic poets is instructive because they do not just describe the gods but sanction and sanctify the entire gamut of human emotion, from ecstasy to despair, as pious response to deity and the actions of deity. This is the first marriage of a humanist polytheism.

Westlakes embrace of cult is what turns this from passive philosophy to religious experience. It is the affirmation that through ritual the human to gain experience of divinity.

This is what makes the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry a good basis for a pagan religion. It works outward, putting the reality ofthe gods before specifics of practice, then saying it is possible for humans to seek experience of the gods. Opening the door to all avenues of practice from prehistory to the current age, from magic to philosophy. All human understandings.

Thoughts on the vortex

[05:04] <obli> THE IMAGE IS NOT an idea. It is a radiant node or cluster; it is what I can, and must perforce, call a VORTEX, from which, and through which, and into which, ideas are constantly rushing. - ezra pound

[05:06] <wulfbyrnan> yep

[05:08] <obli> reading his explanation of vorticism...an art movement he was involved in

[05:12] <obli> i feel like this has some utility tothe use of icons

[05:17] <@Otter> sounds "inspiration" would be  reasonable translation

[05:23] <obli> the vortex has other connotations in vorticist thought

[05:24] <obli> in the experience of "modern" society

[05:25] <obli> something rushing and overwhelming

[05:26] <wulfbyrnan> something whorlpoolish

[05:26] <obli> i guess its the awe inspiring object...or an argument that allobjects should inspireawe

[05:27] <obli> yeah wulfbyrnan

[05:27] <obli> something inescapible

[05:28] <wulfbyrnan> :)

[05:29] <wulfbyrnan> like day to day life ??

[05:30] <obli> more like cosmopolitanism

[05:30] <obli> I doubt farmers would come up with vorticism...they still experience day today life

[06:03] <obli> this is a cultural overwhelming though... the loss of identity

[06:04] <wulfbyrnan> yup otter or the other way around too.. going to solitude could reslly be shocking

[06:04] <obli> that arose from cosmopolitanism

An art movement based on the idea the vortex would change all art.