gods and politics

[01:50] <Otter> i don't think we can really understand where the gods are

[01:50] <Otter> or what they are

[01:50] <Otter> not from here, anyway

[01:51] <Verde> they are a lil like the fey.....they have a different perspective

[01:51] <Otter> but how do they interact with our level of  reality?

[01:52] <obli> are the gods all the same thing?

[01:52] <obli> maybe from our perspective only

[01:52] <Verde> like I'm sure exactly

[01:52] <Otter> it doesn't seem to me that they're interested in ruling our world

[01:52] <Otter> and i'm not sure if they could if they wanted to

[01:52] <Verde> I've had to tell spirits that humans have to sleep and to please be quiet

[01:53] <Otter> no they aren't obli

[01:53] <obli> ruling how?

[01:53] <obli> the gods are apolitical

[01:54] <obli> how can something apolitical rule men? subtly or bluntly

[01:54] <Otter> wise of them

[01:54] <obli> definitely not in a direct and effective manner

[01:55] <Otter> they could, for instance, strike down anyone who vents  CFCs

[01:55] <obli> supposedly the neo-platonists argued the gods don't need men's sacrifices... they are for our benefit

[01:56] <Otter> i go along with that

[01:56] <Otter> i don't think they're like tinkerbell

[01:56] <Otter> dependent on our belief for their existence

[01:56] <obli> you could extrapolate that to the entire relationship :P

[01:56] <obli> i agree

[01:57] <Otter> extrapoliate what?

[01:57] <obli> supposedly the neo-platonists argued the gods don't need men's sacrifices... they are for our benefit

[02:00] <Verde> dang now my body wants sleep and there is a good discussion.......be well all

[02:00] == Verde [~rickm@68.73.97.11] has quit [Quit: #paganjourney]

[02:01] <obli> as in they probably aren't going to step in and manifest themselves in the houses of parliament :P

[02:01] == Tj_Teddy [~Tj@106.51.124.2] has joined #paganjourney

[02:01] <Otter> i don't really think the gods exist for our benefit, thoguh

[02:01] <Otter> the gods i work with are on their own journeys

[02:02] <obli> they are for our benefit = the act of sacrifice is for our benefit

[02:02] <obli> not the gods are for our benefit... though they are to our benefit

[02:02] <Otter> i imagine they benefit from workign with me, much as a teacher benefits from  working with his students

[02:02] <Otter> ah

[02:02] <Otter> that makes more sense

02:08] <obli> i think a god is anything which holds power over the lives of men and they are helpless to combat

[02:10] <Otter> what power does Brighid hold over my life?

[02:11] <Otter> or Bel or the Cailleach?

[02:12] <obli> wish i could tell you man

[02:12] <obli> i don't know enough about them sorry

[02:17] <Otter> any god, then

[02:17] <Otter> i mentioned those three becuase they're the main ones i work with

[02:22] <obli> to make my point i'm going to use blunt examples... obviously they are more nuanced than this...

[02:23] <obli> but take dionysus.. god of altered states... once you have downed the intoxicant... how it effects you is out of your hands

[02:23] <obli> out of the hands of any mortal really

[02:24] <obli> people might be able to intervene to save you from dying... but the trip is happening regardless

[02:26] == chrism [~chrisf826@64.121.102.48] has joined #paganjourney

[02:26] <obli> or superficially different case, there are people who would lay down their lives for justice right?

[02:26] <obli> there are those who would do the same for civilisation

[02:26] <obli> they value it more than their lives

[02:26] <obli> hi chrism

[02:28] <obli> if the ocean wants to take you there's not much you can do... it's time of having power over you may be short (unless you are a sailor) but it's pretty decisive

[02:28] <Otter> so you mean forces of nature

[02:29] <obli> i don't know if higher ideals count as forces of nature

[02:29] <obli> but yes

[02:29] <Otter> right

[02:29] <obli> what else is paganism but nature worship

[02:30] <Otter> it is strict adherence to the traditions of our ancestors, you fluffbunny

[02:30] <Otter> ;-)

[02:31] <obli> as if the two are mutually exclusive ;P

[02:31] <chrism> wow

[02:31] <Otter> i could probably get some people to argue that if i started in the right place

[02:31] <obli> probably

[02:31] <chrism> my connection here didnt die

[02:32] <chrism> morning otter :)

[02:32] <obli> some gods are just weird as well....

[02:32] <Otter> wb chrism

[02:32] <obli> Diana for example

[02:32] <obli> that's what makes polytheism interesting

[02:33] <obli> they have analogous power to the ocean or justice or a drug trip

[02:33] <obli> but in the domain of magic

[02:33] <obli> it is for mystics to ponder

[02:34] <obli> :P

02:37] <Otter> i'm not following

[02:39] <obli> i think he's suprised his connection is good

[02:41] <Otter> i meant i'm not following <obli> Diana for example ... <obli> it is for mystics to ponder

[02:42] <obli> Diana as goddess of magic, in trinity with hecate and such

[02:43] <Otter> has power over mortals doing magic?

[02:45] <obli> her power over magic... like Athenas over civilisation, Dionysus's over altered states and Poseidon's over the sea

[02:47] <obli> bears mystic contemplation as to what this means about the nature of magic... amongst other things

[02:48] <Otter> sometimes i think that the greek and roman gods are completely different from the gods of the norse, germans, and celts

[02:48] <Otter> a different type of thing

[02:49] <obli> the celts made them play together