occult currents, egalitarianism and the definition of religion

[12:26] <obli> hey otter.. .do you know anything about the history of the idea of "currents" in the occult context

[12:32] <@Otter> you mean like ley lines or currents in the body or what?

[12:34] <obli> i mean like the number currents, current 93, current 218, current 23.. maybe there are others

[12:34] <obli> i guess they are like.. schools

[12:34] <obli> of thought

[12:35] <obli> the ones i know of all seem to have musicians at the centre

[12:36] <@Otter> i don't think i've even heard of number currents

[12:37] <@Otter> is current 23 the same thing as 23 enigma?

[12:37] <obli> i suspect its related

[12:37] <obli> its associated with the temple of psychick youth

[12:37] <obli> so chaos magic of some kind

[12:38] <obli> 218 is like gnostic satanism

[12:38] <obli> 93 is... post-thelema?

[12:39] <obli> i wouldn't really take it seriously

[12:39] <obli> but 93 seems to crop up in the wild quite a bit

[12:39] <obli> so i guess its a thing

[12:40] <@Otter> where does the idea of these threads as number currents come from?

[12:41] <obli> no idea

[12:41] <obli> thats why i was hoping you'd know

[12:42] <obli> i'm trying to work out if its a satanic thing... or a more general LHP thing... or something broader... or a music thing

[12:42] <@Otter> i really don't know much about the satanic & LHP stuff

[12:43] <obli> it seems quasi useful

[12:43] <obli> in terms of keeping people focused on what they are doing

[12:43] <@Otter> most of what i have encountered seems either silly or pathetic

[12:44] <obli> without it becoming a mess of eclectisicism

[12:44] <@Otter> possibly useful for recovering christians as a transition, though

[12:44] <obli> well i don't know if 23 is even LHP

[12:45] <@Otter> right

[12:45] <@Otter> 23 i'd consider discordian

[12:45] <obli> yeah

[12:45] <obli> and 93 seems to produce a broad range of sincere material

[12:46] <@Otter> not sure if the LHP types would include it on their side of their false dichotomy or declare it RHP and insist that discordians want give up all their power to the number 23 and ultimately want to sacrifice their idividuality to it

[12:47] <obli> i think discordianism kind of stands in opposition to both the left and right hand paths

[12:47] <@Otter> i agree

[12:47] <obli> in that it seems quite fundamentally egalitarian

[12:47] <obli> and democratic

[12:47] <@Otter> but i suspect most people who identify LHP would have to put it on one side or the other

[12:47] <@Otter> indentify as LHP

[12:48] <obli> maybe

[12:48] <obli> whether or not they did i suspect most would be opposed to it

[12:48] <obli> due to the above

[12:53] <obli> :P

[12:57] <obli> maybe thats one of the reasons i think discordianism has a genuine affinity with paganism beyond the question of "authenticity"

[13:12] <@Otter> that it's not top down?

[13:15] <obli> that theres a fundamental egalitarianism at its core

[13:18] <obli> which is part of the reason paganism suffers so severely from eclecticism i guess

[13:26] <obli> its part of what makes thelema interesting too...

[13:27] <obli> certain axioms kind of demand an egalitarian reading

[13:27] <obli> while others are pure neitzchean

[13:29] <obli> the egalitarianism in it is more developed than in wicca anyway.... wicca makes up for it with the pacifying lie of the threefold law

[13:30] <@Otter> hmmm

[13:30] <@Otter> does paganism suffer from eclecticism?

[13:30] <@Otter> it seems to me the pagan traditions were never a religion in the modern sense of the word

[13:31] <@Otter> maybe orthodoxy was important in some time and period

[13:31] <obli> i don;t even know what the modern sense of the word is at this point

[13:31] <@Otter> but i don't see much evidence of it

[13:31] <@Otter> yeah, that's why i generally avoid the R word

[13:32] <obli> thats why i use it :P

[13:32] <@Otter> LOL

[13:32] <obli> spiritual is a sad compromise... i feel like its kind of lying to yourself... if you are really genuine in what you are doing

[13:33] <@Otter> anyway, i suspect most of the tribes always allowed a fair amount of ecclecticism

[13:33] <@Otter> what do you mean?

[13:33] <obli> i'm not religious i'm spiritual

[13:33] <obli> :P

[13:35] <obli> if you beleive in kharma or life after death or the existance of gods (to name some examples) and are willing to talk about it... i think you are misrepresenting yourself

[13:35] <obli> to say you are spiritual

[13:35] <obli> but not religious

[13:35] <@Otter> how do you define "religious" and "spiritual"?

[13:36] <obli> well everyone is spiritual

[13:36] <@Otter> i think you need to consider what the people making those statements mean by the words before calling it misrepresentation, but what do they mean to you mean by them?

[13:37] <obli> if you are an atheist who beleives the universe is beautiful

[13:37] <obli> thats a spiritual belief.... theres nothing underpinning it other than your feelings

[13:38] <obli> its no kind of factual statement

[13:38] <obli> objectively

[13:39] <obli> as soon as you are trying to convince others... even by just general dissemination of your beleifs... you have entered the religious arena

[13:40] <@Otter> how does general dissemination equate to trying to convince others?

[13:41] <@Otter> and how is it different to disseminate the beliefs that 1) there is no god/spirit/whatever the "thei" in this particular athiests atheism is, and 2) the universe is beautiful?

[13:44] <obli> to dispute that there is no god you need to put up your own competing, from a wide array of options, then you need to dismiss the other options.. its a complex process  

[13:45] <obli> ideal

[13:46] <obli> to assert the universe is beautiful is a pretty arbitrary statement... when you consider evolution and the possibility of suicide

[13:47] <obli> i.e. anyone who disagreed the universe is beautiful had an easy out long before where we are now

[13:47] <obli> humans have evolved to think the universe is beautiful

[13:48] == birch_wood1 [~birch_woo@pool-141-152-47-9.rcmdva.btas.verizon.net] has joined #paganjourney

[13:48] <@Otter> hi Birch

[13:48] <@Otter> how are you doing?

[13:48] <obli> just becuase its our consensual reality doesn't make it objectively true

[13:48] <birch_wood1> hey otter

[13:48] <obli> hi birch_wood1

[13:49] <obli> consensus

[13:49] <obli> even

[13:49] <obli> :P

[13:50] <@Otter> so, it's only spiritual and religious obli, if the atheist doesn't say he's an atheist, but merley states the universe is beautiful?

[13:51] <birch_wood1> hi obli

[13:51] <obli> even if he says he's an atheist

[13:51] <obli> in my book

[13:51] <@Otter> spirtual and NOT religious

[13:52] <@Otter> sorry, been leaving a lot of words out latelyi

[13:52] <obli> hmm

[13:52] <obli> happens to us all man

[13:52] <@Otter> if seems like almost anything you might say would then be religious

[13:53] <obli> even then its religious... its an acknowledgement of a kind of primal nature worship

[13:53] <@Otter> again, how are you defining religion?

[13:53] <obli> anything that could be called spiritual definitely

[13:55] <obli> broadly... its increasingly popular to call communism religious... at that point basicly anything that exhibits cult like characteristics, or mysticism, is religious

[13:56] <obli> basicly i think calling yourself spiritual and not religious is an attempt to avoid examining the implications of what you are saying... to preform an impossible defanging opperation

[13:56] <obli> to attempt to preform one anyway

[14:00] <@Otter> i am spiritual.  i have a spiritual tradition.  i avoid the word "religion" beause it means too many things, many of them heavily loaded

[14:01] <@Otter> many people use "religion" to mean something with dogma and a hierarchy

[14:01] <obli> i also use the world cult and idolatry freely so take it as you will ;P

[14:01] <obli> as neutral terms

[14:01] <@Otter> belief as a virtue, etc

[14:02] <@Otter> cult i tihnk is a valid, and useful term

[14:03] <obli> i don't think idol worship raises any less hackles than idolatry

[14:03] <obli> if you attribute it to an individual

[14:04] <obli> devoced of tone  

[14:04] <obli> i.e. in a written medium

[14:04] <obli> :P

[14:05] <obli> but when i'm talking about idolatry/idol worship its usually in the context of a discussion about the mechanics of idol worship

[14:05] <@Otter> who actually worships an idol, though?

[14:05] <@Otter> unfortuantely, many people believe it means only "messianic personality cult", "mind control cult", or even "other people's freaky religion"

[14:06] <obli> and idolatry is quicker to write... and i don't think it carries much weight as a perjoritve when you are devorced fromt he christian worldview

[14:06] <obli> how else do you quickly convey the idea of the use of idols in worship

[14:07] <obli> i think the idea that when a non-monotheist talks about idol worship they litterally mean worshiping a peice of stone or whatever is a red herring :P

[14:08] <obli> trying to avoid the term idol worship is stringing alot of barbwire across any discussion of the practice

[14:08] <obli> it makes talking about it a huge chore :P

[14:10] <@Otter> you have strong opinions about the meaning of words that have multiple or vague definitions

[14:12] == Verde [~quien@76.235.47.67] has joined #paganjourney

[14:12] <Verde> hola

[14:12] <@Otter> welcome Verde

[14:12] == PonderWolf [~ponderwol@108-193-152-165.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #paganjourney

[14:12] <PonderWolf> MM

[14:12] <@Otter> hello Roy

[14:12] <@Otter> how are you two?

[14:12] <birch_wood1> hey roy

[14:12] <Verde> trying to stay out of trouble and I am not succeeding

[14:12] <birch_wood1> hey verde

[14:13] <obli> anyway

[14:13] <obli> i should go shower and go to school

[14:13] <obli> hi Verde  and PonderWolf

[14:13] <obli> thanks for the discussion Otter

[14:13] <PonderWolf> MM all.

[14:14] <obli> and yeah... i do... maybe its wrong... but it seems a kind of damned if you do damned if you don't thing

[14:15] <obli> or maybe i think my definitions are helpful in assisting me in picking material to aquire

[14:15] <obli> prehaps i should examine my stance

[14:16] * Otter nods

[14:16] <@Otter> just keep in mind that not every one means the same thing when they use those words

[14:16] <@Otter> keep you out of pointless sematic arguments that can go on for years

[14:17] <obli> i'm aware cult and idol worship are less problematic... religion and deity/gods are the kind of wors where i wonder if any two people ever mean the same thing by them

[14:17] <obli> i've had a few of those :P

[14:18] <obli> pretty unavoidable when most of your day revolves around the word "art"

[14:18] <@Otter> lol

in defence of reconstructionism and more nots on idoletry

[00:03] <obli> did you and otter come to a consensus on pagan vagueness Eugenios

[00:03] <Eugenios> Yes

[00:03] <Tj_inLove> obli: pagan vagueness?

[00:04] <Eugenios> Tj_inLove: A lot of eclectic solitary neopagans basically have a vague path with little specificity

[00:04] <Eugenios> They hate tradition

[00:04] <Eugenios> And don't want to be challenged

[00:04] <Tj_inLove> aah

[00:04] <Tj_inLove> well...as soemone who has a similar prblem i can relate

[00:04] <Eugenios> The consensus we came to is that these people haven't or dont want to learn

[00:04] <Tj_inLove> for me its not so much that i HATE it, but that given modern mindset traditins just dont "gel" wiht me

[00:05] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: aah

[00:05] <obli> hmm

[00:06] <obli> do you think this is less of a problem in the odinist/heathen community than other branches of paganism Eugenios

[00:06] <obli> because from the outside looking in they look alot more organised than other branches

[00:06] <Eugenios> But not every tradition is like Christianity

[00:06] <Eugenios> obli: it's less of a problem in traditional polytheism as a whole

[00:07] <Eugenios> Heathenry, Hellenism, Celtic Recon, Kemetic Polytheism, etc...

[00:07] <obli> so its more of a problem with the "witchcraft" traditions?

[00:07] <Eugenios> You still feel hurt by world religions

[00:08] <Tj_inLove> obli: why so?

[00:08] <Eugenios> Not entirely

[00:08] <Eugenios> It's an issue with the "eclectic solitary neopagan" group

[00:09] <Eugenios> Traditional Witches, initiated Wiccans, Druids, and Hermeticists don't have this problem either

[00:09] <obli> i'm just trying to get a grip on the idea Tj_inLove

[00:09] <Eugenios> ESNs, as I've taken to calling them, have very shallow paths

[00:09] <Eugenios> Very little study

[00:09] <obli> it wassn't a -hard- accusation :P

[00:09] <Eugenios> Very little exploration

[00:10] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: why so?

[00:10] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: or rather...why do you think so

[00:10] <Eugenios> Because they're still hurt and angry from Christianity

[00:10] <Eugenios> They want a path that makes them feel comfortable - even special

[00:11] <obli> do you think these problems would be solved by more numbers Eugenios ? like if every city over 100,000 had a few hundred pagans, and they were organises, signifigantly less of the community would suffer from this?

[00:11] <obli> i mean a better support network

[00:11] <Tj_inLove> nod

[00:11] <obli> or is this inherantly on the individual

[00:11] <Tj_inLove> yea

[00:11] <obli> organsied

[00:12] <Tj_inLove> obli: no..i think it has to do with the fact taht a lot of these people are more "anti christian pagan" rather than "just plain pagan" if that maeks sense

[00:12] <Eugenios> obli: Time... we just need time

[00:12] <Eugenios> Our community is getting out of its adolescence

[00:12] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: and less christian influenece

[00:12] <Eugenios> Yes

[00:13] <obli> it's amazing how easy i found it to kill all christian influence in the end...

[00:13] <obli> humanist influence on the other hand

[00:13] <obli> not that i think theres anything wrong with humanism

[00:13] <obli> or its incompadible at all

[00:14] <obli> but maybe i'm wrong

[00:14] <Tj_inLove> obli: theres a lot of stuff thats VERY deep that ppl dont even realise

[00:14] <obli> sin seems the hardest for most people to reject

[00:15] <obli> and (in recent history esspecially) the aplocylpce

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> i also include the loose aristotelean influence that christian culture brought with it

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> hmm

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> obli: the idea of good vs evil

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> obli: monotheism

[00:15] <Tj_inLove> all things ive found ppl to be basically NEVER letting go of

[00:16] <obli> well Aristotle was a pagan too :P

[00:16] <Tj_inLove> lol yea true

[00:16] <Tj_inLove> no i mean some of his philosohical thoughts that went down to aquinas etc

[00:17] <obli> i think monotheism is the easiest to jettison for people who have begun following -any- pagan path

[00:17] <Tj_inLove> idea of a seperate soul

[00:17] <Tj_inLove> dualism is INSANELY ingrained in our culture (c.f. "freaky friday")

[00:17] <obli> since its at the centre of christian claims

[00:17] <obli> yeah TJ_inlove

[00:17] <Tj_inLove> obli: ull be surprised

[00:18] <Tj_inLove> obli: the immediate effects of monotheism are easy to jettison yes, but there are deeper aspects of it that people carry over the pagansim

[00:18] <obli> i think within paganism there are disagreements over what to replace dualism with

[00:18] <Tj_inLove> at least imio

[00:18] <Tj_inLove> *imo

[00:18] <obli> in that alot replace it with a unity

[00:19] <obli> where i think there is incipient in hard polytheism a pluralism

[00:19] * Tj_inLove narrows hi eyes at obli

[00:19] <Tj_inLove> *his

[00:19] <Tj_inLove> obli: apparently i have never met any pagans then

[00:20] <obli> um... you may not have met any hard polytheists

[00:20] <obli> ;P

[00:20] <Tj_inLove> no..ive not met anyone who is a pagan pantheist

[00:20] <obli> hmm

[00:20] <Tj_inLove> aside from myself, wulfbyrnan and ADeline

[00:20] <obli> i see them alot in the litterature

[00:21] <Tj_inLove> you do?

[00:21] <obli> esspecially out of llywyelleian and that kind of thing

[00:21] <Tj_inLove> i think the word you are looking for is henotheism

[00:21] <Tj_inLove> ?

[00:21] <obli> for pagans who beleive in a unity?

[00:22] <Tj_inLove> for one, the common stereotype of dualism (is that the word?) is basically completely contrary to pantheism

[00:22] <obli> yeah

[00:23] <obli> basicly... i see alot of pantheists... and alot of people who place all gods under a creator (wicca does something similar with the god and goddess archetypes)

[00:23] <obli> in the literature

[00:23] <Eugenios> Most Pagans are some form of soft polytheist or pantheist

[00:23] <Tj_inLove> obli: yea exactly...thats not really pantheism, id classify that more as henotheism

[00:23] <Eugenios> henotheism

[00:24] <Eugenios> another term for soft polytheism

[00:24] <Tj_inLove> yeaxactly

[00:24] <obli> theres nothing inherantly wrong with either approach... they don't make you -not pagan-

[00:25] <Tj_inLove> polytheism but  one god is superiour

[00:25] <Tj_inLove> no ofc not

[00:25] <Tj_inLove> im just a stickler for correct terminology

[00:25] <Tj_inLove> :)

[00:25] <obli> but they are fundamentally different from each other and from hard polytheism

[00:25] <obli> and all 3 can legitimately exist and claim decent from the same tradition

[00:27] <Tj_inLove> nod

[00:27] <Tj_inLove> you can very easily "logically" jump from one to the other

[00:27] <obli> i think alot of the problem... is that (by necessity) the average contemporary paganthinks more about spirituality than the average ancient pagan needed to

[00:28] <Tj_inLove> to me they say the same thing..just differently

[00:29] <Tj_inLove> hm

[00:29] <obli> in that -outside of the philosophers- how would it come up that so in so is a pantheist inside a robust civic framework

[00:29] <Tj_inLove> obli: for mthe problem has always been reconciling my modern understanding of the world with traditions that were meant for a different mind

[00:31] <obli> i guess this is where reconstructionists have an edge ... if you can hammer orthopraxy then these distinctions disappear

[00:32] <Tj_inLove> hm

[00:32] <Tj_inLove> well, i still havent made my peace with khemetic rituals :(

[00:32] <Eugenios> Why?

[00:33] <obli> are you addressing tj Eugenios ?

[00:34] <Eugenios> Yes

[00:34] == ChanServ changed the topic of #paganjourney to: A safe place to discuss the ways of paganism in friendship. All are welcome. Please be respectful of each other and of all paths. The ops have the final say on what is appropriate. Please hold idle chat if a serious topic is introduced. Ground Rules: http://channels.dal.net/paganjourney/      

[00:34] <Tj_inLove> Eugenios: likke i said...they dont make sense to me...hmmhard to explain. I have to find meaning in what i do...a REASON  etc...

[00:37] <obli> i wonder how i'd fit in with a hellenic or roman reconstructionist group :P

[00:38] <Eugenios> You might do alright

[00:38] <Tj_inLove> also...smthg about khemetic recon ive seen so far around hte internet maeks me blah

[00:39] <Eugenios> The one area of contention in Hellenic and Roman Polytheism is magic and mysticism. There are several Hellenic mystics, like myself, but magic is generally something you keep private

[00:39] <Eugenios> Compelling deities to do your bidding is consider hubris

[00:39] <Tj_inLove> thats what magic is?

[00:39] <Tj_inLove> the word "compelling" does seem a bit hubris-like yea

[00:40] <obli> hard you read the greek magic papyri Eugenios?

[00:40] <obli> have

[00:40] == ogrom [~ogrom@gprs-inet-183-177.elisa.ee] has joined #paganjourney

[00:41] <Eugenios> Yes

[00:41] <Eugenios> The PGM is Hellenistic - late Roman

[00:41] <Eugenios> There is a blurry connection between Greek Mysticism and Hermeticism

[00:41] <Eugenios> Theurgy is more like a deepening of divine relationships

[00:41] <obli> yeah

[00:42] <Eugenios> Magic, as we commonly understand it, is hubris

[00:42] <obli> but yeah compelling a group of reconstructionists to do magic is pretty counter reconstructionist

[00:42] <Eugenios> Folk Magic even, is generally discouraged. In Greek Religion, you should trust your faith, and work on actions more than expecting charms to fix your problems

[00:43] <Eugenios> In my experience, prayer is far more effective - by A LOT

[00:43] <Eugenios> I've had very mystical experiences with prayer - and results that I cannot explain

[00:43] <obli> i'm more interested in the spiritual forces at play in magic than casting a working get rich spell

[00:45] <Eugenios> I don't think magic is wrong - just a different technique

[00:45] <Eugenios> I'm a seer

[00:45] == ChanServ changed the topic of #paganjourney to: A safe place to discuss the ways of paganism in friendship. All are welcome. Please be respectful of each other and of all paths. The ops have the final say on what is appropriate. Please hold idle chat if a serious topic is introduced. Ground Rules: http://channels.dal.net/paganjourney/      

[00:46] <obli> the PGM are a complicated set of documents

[00:46] <obli> but theres some deeply interesting stuff in there

[00:46] == ogrom has changed nick to Guest28798

[00:46] <obli> by their nature -unless you are a witch or magician- they're going to be something thats up to the individual to pick and choose from though

[00:47] <obli> like... primarily a witch or magician

[00:47] <obli> before other things

[00:47] <Eugenios> To me, magical or mystical paths are "side" paths

[00:47] <Eugenios> Alongside religion

[00:48] <obli> well i'm at least as much an artist as a pagan... and the question of where the artist fits in paganism is very obscure

[00:49] <Eugenios> Sure

[00:49] <obli> especially since the last 5 century's (untill the 60's) artists have basicly been the champions of what paganism has existed

[00:49] <obli> to my eyes

[00:52] <obli> but in ancient paganism its entirely possible alot of them were slaves (or little better) with very little in the way of freedom to choose what they were doing

[00:52] <Eugenios> True

[00:52] <Tj_inLove> -_-

[00:54] <obli> but i think the idol -in its construction- contains its own religious authority... thats tied to the artists ability to convey the sublime

[00:54] <obli> so even back then.. its not so cut and dried

[00:54] <obli> skilled execution makes the preist of the slave :P

[00:54] <Tj_inLove> woops wrong window

[00:54] <obli> heh

[00:55] <obli> do idols play a part in your practice Eugenios ?

[00:57] <Eugenios> As sacred symbols, sure

[01:00] <obli> i kind of see them as a point to consider deity from.... you look at them and consider how they are alike and how they differ from the deity they represent

[01:00] <obli> though i'm not hardline on that interpretation

[01:01] <Eugenios> There are some ideas like that in Ancient Greece

[01:02] <Eugenios> Aphrodite's statues were often washed and dressed in her temples

[01:02] <Eugenios> It was definitely the case in Babylon and Canaan

[01:02] <Eugenios> With their deities

[01:03] <obli> an idol is an interesting object.... it can be used in alot of ways... in some regards its a medium... in some is shares similarities with a shaman (maybe?)