more idoltry

[04:24] <obli> theres an old neoplatonic text by Sallustius called "on the gods and the cosmos"

[04:24] <obli> whic says

[04:25] <obli> The cosmos itself must of necessity be indestructible and uncreated. Indestructible because, suppose it destroyed: the only possibility is to make one better than this or worse or the same or a chaos. If worse, the power which out of the better makes the worse must be bad. If better, the maker who did not make the better at first must be imperfect in power. If the same, there will be no use in making it; if a chaos... it is impious even to hear such a thing suggeste

[04:25] <obli> d

[04:25] <@Otter> it's obvious if you watch a few of her music videos.  she's into burlesque

[04:25] <obli> yeah Otter

[04:25] <obli> i wonder what neil gaimans home life is like

[04:25] <obli> :P

[04:27] <obli> i like how the dismissal  of the possibility of the universe arising from chaos is a brand it a heresy :P

[04:27] <TheWolf> That doesn't make sense really obli

[04:27] <@Otter> who is neil gaiman?

[04:28] <obli> her husband... famous writer

[04:28] <obli> what about it doesn't make sense TheWolf ? the whole thing?

[04:28] <@Otter> ah

[04:28] <@Otter> i wonder if he's an extrovert too

[04:28] <TheWolf> well those conclusions he makes

[04:29] <TheWolf> God could be making a bad world to help us grow.  A better one to help us grow. etc

[04:29] <@Otter> i agree.  apply the same logic to any object, and it's nonsensical

[04:30] <@Otter> i don't see the connection that makes it valid when applied to the entire universe

[04:30] <obli> i guess their conception of god is tied to the platonic conception of "the good" TheWolf

[04:31] <@Otter> ah, right.  if you take a good and omnipotent god as a given, then i guess it does make logical sense

[04:32] <@Otter> OTOH, an athiest might use very similar logic to argue against the existence of such a god

[04:33] <obli> frankly i think the concept of a creator god is a tool of oppression

[04:34] <@Otter> it's certainly been used that way

[04:35] <obli> if you beleive in a creator god... that basicly shuts down any possibility of anything going against it's "plan"... so it just becomes a way to convince people to do your bidding in it's name

[04:35] <obli> chaos is a more elegant explanation :P

[04:39] <obli> you know how you can look at the world and either laugh of cry

[04:39] <obli> or

[04:39] <@Otter> i don't believe in such a god.  but assuming for the sake of argument that there is one, then isn't it part of the plan that i do what seems right to me?

[04:39] <@Otter> and think for myself?

[04:39] <@Otter> otherwise, why would i be like i am?

[04:39] <TheWolf> The anthopomorphosis of God seems a bit silly

[04:39] * Otter nods

[04:41] <obli> i don't have much time for beleifs that exist to maintain injustices

[04:41] <@Otter> i suppose the argument is that it's not anthropomorphism of god but deomorphism of humans

[04:42] <obli> no matter how much pie in the sky the offer in return for taking getting fucked over with gentle good humour :P

[04:42] <@Otter> LOL

[04:43] <TheWolf> What does deomorphism mean?  Couldn't find it in the dictionary

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[04:45] <@Otter> i wonder if political control was at the root of the genesis of monotheism, or if it just happened to be a useful tool for that

[04:45] <@Otter> certainly it's been an   important factor in the spread of monotheism

[04:45] <@Otter> hi ogrom

[04:45] <@Otter> brb

[04:46] <obli> well

[04:46] <obli> look at its origionaors

[04:46] <obli> plato

[04:46] <obli> p horrible

[04:46] <obli> politically

[04:46] <obli> moses

[04:46] <obli> .

[04:46] <Tj_inLove> helol TheWolf

[04:48] <ogrom> hi Otter

[04:52] <@Otter> b

[04:54] <@Otter> moses probably wasn't a real person, though, at least not as described in the OT

[04:55] <obli> does that really matter?

[04:55] <obli> i mean

[04:55] <@Otter> yes

[04:55] <obli> the upshot of the moses story

[04:56] <obli> is you have some rules saying you can't worship any god but this paticular god

[04:56] <obli> thats the important bit

[04:56] <obli> :P

[04:56] <@Otter> exactly

[04:56] <obli> the idolatry rule is interesting too

[04:56] <@Otter>  now is that part of monotheism from the get go, or did that get added in because someone realized it strengthened their grip on hearts, minds, and the local economy?

[04:57] <obli> well

[04:57] <obli> if you don't have that

[04:57] <obli> then can you have monotheism?

[04:57] <obli> without that wouldn't monotheism tend toward looking something like theosophy

[04:58] <@Otter> not sure

[04:58] <obli> with a prime source or whatever... then a spiritual hireachy with devas and so on

[04:59] <obli> i have a theory about idolatry

[04:59] <obli> about why it was banned

[05:00] <obli> i think part of it may be the same reason divination was banned

[05:00] <@Otter> i haven't gotten very deep into either system

[05:00] <Tj_inLove> wihtout what?

[05:00] <Tj_inLove> banned ?

[05:00] <obli> by the 10 commandments

[05:01] <ogrom> why was divination banned?

[05:01] <@Otter> well, christianity is like that

[05:02] <ogrom> 10 commandments is not christianity

[05:02] <@Otter> they've got their One True God (Who optionallyh includes His Son), angels, saints, etc

[05:03] <obli> idolatry democratizes spirituality, your experience with an idol is unmeadiated by any religious teacher, and it allows a spiritual authority outside of scripture... i think most people can tell when an artwork has something powerful about it that transfixes you

[05:03] <Tj_inLove> obli: nod

[05:03] <@Otter> Tj: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_make_unto_thee_any_graven_image

[05:04] <@Otter> hmmm

[05:04] <Tj_inLove> Otter: right right

[05:04] <Tj_inLove> also..in terms of knowing God..idols are a distraction

[05:04] <Tj_inLove> and humans are easily distracted by shiny things

[05:06] <@Otter> so you think that having artwork as a focus makes direct communion more likely, whereas if people deal only with very abstract concepts of divniity, they are more likely to depend on the priesthood to tell them what's what?

[05:07] <@Otter> do think that was the driving force behind iconclasm, obli?

[05:07] <obli> i think an idol has the potential to be a useful meditative tool... you can consider the ways it is like the god and how it falls short

[05:08] <obli> it would be wrong to paint it as the whole story... but i think they are important things to consider

[05:08] <obli> but... this is basicly idol apologetics on my part... so take it as you will

[05:08] <obli> :P

[05:09] <Tj_inLove> Otter: part of me says yes... *but* it CAN make sense even in the absence of selfish preisthood

[05:09] <Tj_inLove> obli: like i said..ppl are easily distracted

[05:09] <Tj_inLove> hmm just realised bleeped out swear word seems to have a more drastic effect

[05:09] <obli> well

[05:10] <obli> it interesting to consider that early roman religion and shinto don't really have idols either

[05:10] <obli> but they are/were also very focused on place

[05:10] <Tj_inLove> obli: they did..iin a way

[05:10] <Tj_inLove> obli: they experienced the divine all around them

[05:11] <Tj_inLove> obli: so nature is the "idol"

[05:11] <obli> yeah

[05:11] <obli> which i think has a democratizing effect on spirituality

[05:12] <@Otter> brb

[05:13] <Tj_inLove> obli: yeap

[05:14] <obli> theres a Dionysian aspect in an effective artwork... it suggests something to your mind which you just kind of follow

[05:17] <@Otter> i'm told that early hebrew (if that's even the right word) spirituality had a lot of "god of this place"

[05:17] <@Otter> is more abstract art prohibited?

[05:17] <@Otter> mandalas, crosses, stars, etc?

[05:17] <@Otter> and what about candles?

[05:17] <@Otter> candle gazing is extremely effective for many people

[05:17] <@Otter> lol

[05:18] <obli> yeah,,, it's there in the fire

[05:19] <@Otter> a woman from my mother's quaker meeting told me that a neighbor of hers lit some candles and the police came because another neighbor had complained she was practicing satanism.  not sure how much of that actually happened, though

[05:19] <obli> thats one of the interesting things at winter solstice.... watching people getting hypnotised by the fire

[05:20] <@Otter> so how does the prohibition against "idolatry" have any effect if poeple are still allowed to gaze at fire?

[05:20] <obli> dancing with the fire

[05:20] <obli> well i don't think fire meditation is a big thing in christianity is it :P

[05:20] <obli> it's kind of inherantly nature worship

[05:21] <obli> fire being all... elemental and that :P

[05:21] <@Otter> depends on how you define big

[05:21] <@Otter> the catholics have their rosary beads

[05:21] <@Otter> oh, sorry, fire meditation

[05:21] <@Otter> i don't know

[05:21] <@Otter> do they pray over candles?

[05:21] <obli> they light candles in prayer

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---

[05:23] <obli> they don't really do the bonfire thing

[05:23] <obli> unless theres stakes and old women involved :P

[05:24] <@Otter> i know some sects light a lot of htem

[05:24] <@Otter> hi Wolf

[05:24] <@Otter> we're discussing monotheism, idols, etc

[05:24] <@Otter> perhaps the prohibition against idolatry is to keep people form differentiating their gods

[05:24] <@Otter> i've talked to a lot of people, and i have yet to meet a single one who actually worhshipped an idol

[05:24] <@Otter> i suppose the village idiot might have, but i doubt there was ever very much of that

[05:25] <obli> well... i dunno how much currancy the idea of "the fetish" has anymore

[05:25] <@Otter> the idol is a symbolic link, and would hope nearly everyone who actually uses one would know that

[05:25] <obli> but thats basicly what that is

[05:26] * Otter nods

[05:26] <obli> i have a book on fetish construction

[05:26] <@Otter> i'd have to go to the dictionaries to differentiate the two terms

[05:26] <obli> by either an incredibly eclectic 1950s occultist

[05:27] <obli> or a 90's chaos magician posing as the same

[05:27] <obli> :P

[05:27] <obli> where you are builting an object to worship

[05:27] <@Otter> LOL

[05:27] <@Otter> in the latter case, it's interesting that he only grandmothered it by 40 years

[05:28] <obli> but its also a deeply involved magical working so i guess the arguement could be made that it's the magic that is put into that connects it back into something greater than just the rolled up newspapers you are worshiping

[05:29] * Otter nods

[05:29] <@Otter> i honestly don't grok worship

[05:30] <obli> heh

[05:30] <obli> what else is there

thoughts on solstice 2014

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[12:37] <obli_> hey

[12:37] <@Craig> hi obli_

[12:38] <obli_> hi Craig

[12:40] <obli_> raves are interesting... watching how people interact with the landscape

[12:41] <@Craig> I bet...never been to one but it looks like it'd be a blast

[12:43] <obli_> the one they have down here every winter solstice is pretty sweet... they rent out an old scout camp out in the hills... lots of places to explore

[12:43] <obli_> listening to techo bouncing off the hills

[12:45] <@Craig> nice :)

[12:45] <@Craig> I listen to the electronic stations on my satellite radio sometimes

[12:45] <@Craig> not enough to really know any artists besides Massive Attack, but they're kind of everywhere

[12:45] <obli_> theres a camp fire area and like an ambiant room with like psychedelic stuff playing

[12:46] <obli_> yeah electronic is a broad genre

[12:46] <@Craig> the ambient stuff is good for reading or doing something else in the background

[12:47] <obli_> yeah :)

[12:48] <obli_> there was a point in the night where is sounded like they were just rolling some deep sine waves off the hills

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[12:49] <@Craig> my psychedelic taking days were over before electronic music really became a thing, but I imagine you could just listen for an entire trip, lol

[12:50] <obli_> i like how its like out in nature and stuff.. then you have weird experimental noises piercing the night

[12:50] <TheWolf> I'm considering taking mushrooms

[12:50] <TheWolf> when I have sorted my mental health out

[12:50] <obli_> cool

[12:51] <obli_> have you taken them before?

[12:51] <TheWolf> I haven't

[12:51] <obli_> i've had good experiances on the kind your find around here

[12:51] <obli_> *you find

[12:53] <obli_> ran into this guy who left art school last year... guess he's like a full time hippy now :P

[12:57] <Otter> b

[12:57] <@Craig> wb

[12:58] <obli_> wb

[13:01] <@Craig> I'm kind of back and forth installing linux, so I apologize if I take a bit to answer

[13:01] <obli_> no worries :)

[13:03] <obli_> the birds here make interesting noises.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B__P-jPrrRw&feature=youtu.be i wonder how they'd sound being blasted out into the hills with massive speakers :P

[13:05] <Otter> that baptist lecture you linked was interesting, obli

[13:06] <Otter> i was amazed at how many things he got right

[13:06] <obli_> yeah

[13:06] <Otter> and even more amazed at how he could undrestand all those things about paganism and then conclude we are all destined to be nihilsts because we don't ahve a god beyond nature to tell us to be nice to eachother

[13:07] <obli_> yeah.... it's easy to see other world views as nihilistic

[13:07] <obli_> i kind of think that about christianity and buddhism :P

[13:08] <Otter> yes, it is easy to fall into that.

[13:09] <Otter> if you reject someone else's version of the meaning of things, it's easy to forget that it still has meaning to them

[13:09] <obli_> when you put too much emphasis on the transcendent you tend to devalue the imediate  

[13:09] <obli_> and visa versa

[13:09] <Otter> he's also got a confusion about transcendence

[13:10] <Otter> took me a bit to figure out what he meant when he said there was no room for transcendence in paganism

[13:10] <obli_> it's easy to see how he can imagine it to be so

[13:10] <Otter> because it certianly transcends "mundane" experience

[13:11] <obli_> yeah

[13:11] <Otter> i think what he means is that to us everything is part of nature

[13:11] <obli_> yeah

[13:12] <obli_> thats a gross simplification of course :P

[13:12] <Otter> fair enough

[13:12] <Otter> but he fails to realize that that means that "nature" is considerably bigger for us than it is for him

[13:12] <obli_> on his part

[13:12] <Otter> and includes the stuff he thinks of as transcendent

[13:12] <obli_> yeah

[13:12] <Otter> for a baptist, i think he did pretty well

[13:12] <Otter> he got past "satanists! evil! kill kill!"

[13:13] <obli_> i think he brings some interesting insights that people approaching it from the inside wouldn't neccicarrilly see as central to what paganism is

[13:14] <obli_> he makes a good case for paganism having a wide appeal

[13:14] <obli_> in the future

[13:15] * Otter nods

[13:15] <Otter> we don't evangelize, so it was interesting to hear an evangelist talking up paganism

[13:15] <Otter> lol

[13:16] <obli_> i should probably cull what he has to say thats useful and put it on witchvox or something

[13:16] <Otter> if he went around deliving just the first third of his lecture, i'm sure he'd recruit quite a few

[13:16] <obli_> or r/paganism :P

[13:16] <obli_> heh

[13:17] <Otter> for anyone who hasn't encountered what we're talking about yet:  http://www.bethinking.org/other-religions/paganism-strikes-back-the-return-of-ancient-spirituality

[13:18] <Tj_inLove> what kinda stuff deos r/paganism have obli_ ??

[13:18] <obli_> you know reddit?

[13:18] <Tj_inLove> Otter: lol i just realised the title could be a jab-ish reference to star wars

[13:18] <Tj_inLove> obli_: ofc

[13:18] <Otter> reddit has a pagan forum?

[13:19] <obli_> yeah

[13:19] <obli_> maybe two

[13:19] <obli_> modding politics

[13:19] <Otter> figures, but i never stumbled onto them

[13:19] <Otter> modding politics?

[13:20] <Otter> like what... politically correct LED fans?

[13:20] <obli_> basicly there was a pagan subreddit that banned lhp peeps

[13:21] <Tj_inLove> obli_: banned who?

[13:21] <obli_> so someone started another more inclusive pagan subreddit

[13:21] <obli_> left hand path guys

[13:22] <obli_> and the new subreddit has active mods... and the origional one doesn't anymore... so the mods of the new pagan subreddit have been give the old subreddit... so i think theres just one pagan subreddit now

[13:22] <obli_> :P

[13:23] <Otter> ah

[13:24] <obli_> theres also an interesting subreddit called sorcery of the spectacle, which is about using magick to interfere with the workings of consumer society :P

[13:24] <Otter> when does the miniseries come out?

[13:25] <obli_> :P

[13:29] <obli_> haha... the birds here learn songs from commercials http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqE9uyRHt-k

[13:30] <obli_> it's so incestuous... even nature is pop art

[13:33] <@Craig> lol

[13:33] <@Craig> wow, that's gotta be a sign of the apocalypse, speaking of Baptists...

[13:33] <Otter> LOL

[13:35] <obli_> i wonder what playing them dubstep all night does for them :P

[13:35] <Otter> someone who used to chat here... forget her nick atm

[13:35] <Otter> liked to feed crows

[13:36] <Otter> she taught them to say hello

[13:36] <obli_> heh

[13:36] <Otter> and she'd take bits of chicken with her when she drove to town

[13:36] <Otter> the crows would follow her car to get the treat

[13:36] <Otter> land on it, and say "hello"

[13:36] <@Craig> lol, nice L(

[13:36] <@Craig> err :)

[13:37] <Otter> she said this freaked some observers out

[13:37] <obli_> lol

[13:37] <obli_> top marks

[13:40] <obli_> i like how theres also the city midwinter festival on the same night as the rave http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/306692/city-lights-midwinter-carnival

[13:58] <Otter> how do the local christians get along with that, Obli?

[14:08] <obli_> hmm

[14:08] <obli_> most christians here arn't super strident

[14:09] <Otter> that's true here too

[14:09] <obli_> basicly the country at one stage was equal thirds anglican, presbytarian and catholic

[14:09] <Otter> but we have a few sects that would like to stamp out yule

[14:10] * Otter nods

[14:10] <obli_> so they all had incentive to support religious pluralism

[14:11] <obli_> yeah... those sects say worrying things about Christianity :P

[14:12] <obli_> they point to something in christianity that works to erase cultures

[14:12] <Otter> well, it's a messianic personality cult.

[14:13] <obli_> yeah

[14:13] <Otter> hmmm

[14:13] <Otter> is that a feature of chirstianity specifically?

[14:13] <Otter> prescriptivism in general has that effect

[14:14] <obli_> the abrahamic religions in general are like that

[14:14] <Otter> many dialects have suffered because some self-styled experts decided their own dialect was superior

[14:14] <obli_> i think its kind of implicit in all transendant religions

[14:16] <Otter> "god wants YOU to nuke the infidels"?

[14:16] <Otter> hmmm

[14:16] <@Craig> seems that way

[14:17] <Otter> are there trancesendent sprititual traditions or religions where belief is not a virtue?

[14:17] <@Craig> what do you mean by transcendent?

[14:18] <obli_> well the idea of a creator deity kind of implies that some are blessed with his favour and some are cursed... and that whatever you want to do is divinely sanctioned because why else would you want to do it :P

[14:18] <obli_> i dunno.. does buddhism demand beleif

[14:18] <Otter> any that embrace othopraxy instead of orthodoxy?

[14:18] <@Craig> lol, demands the opposite

[14:19] <obli_> otter

[14:19] <@Craig> demands you stop living in your mind of ideas and live in the immediate world

[14:19] <obli_> my heart says no

[14:19] <Otter> is buddhism transcendent?

[14:19] <obli_> yes

[14:19] <obli_> its about escaping suffering

[14:19] <obli_> in the end

[14:20] <obli_> the world is something you suffer ;P

[14:20] <Otter> yes, but is that transcendent in teh sense of going beyond nature?

[14:21] <obli_> its rejecting nature... nature is a place you suffer in

[14:21] <obli_> thats my reading

[14:21] <Otter> or just transcending one state to enter another, which i think you'd find in any tradition

[14:22] <Otter> i ask because i haven't really dug into either buddhism or hinduism in their native contexts

[14:22] <obli_> the goal as i understand it is to escape reincarnation..

[14:22] <Otter> and the westernized versions seem like they might be influenced by christianity

[14:23] <obli_> how so?

[14:23] <Otter> karma sounds a lot like sin

[14:23] <@Craig> I've practiced Buddhism off and on, and I think you have some misunderstandings of it

[14:23] <obli_> it has the same problems

[14:23] <obli_> belief in a just world

[14:23] <Tj_inLove> Craig: nod

[14:23] <obli_> where everyone gets what they deserve

[14:24] <obli_> if you are poor its bad kharma from your past life

[14:24] <obli_> or diseased

[14:24] <obli_> or whatever

[14:26] <Otter> also, the physical is demonized

[14:26] <obli_> i think its possible to be a practising buddhist (especially in the west) and not deal with that... but its a definate part of how the religion works

[14:26] <Otter> i'm not at all sure that's consistent with what siddartha actually taught

[14:27] <Otter> he didn't get that jovian belly by rejecting physical reality

[14:28] <obli_> i dunno i am mostly basing this off talking to buddhists on irc and Osamu Tezuka's manga of the life of buddha

[14:28] <Otter> i don't know either

[14:28] <@Craig> the cultures where the Buddha-dharma is taught kept a lot of their religious trappings and outward characteristics.  A lot of times that gets confused for being part of it, but it's not part of the meat

[14:28] <obli_> which does a vivid job to illustrating the kind of religious environment Buddhism sprung from  

[14:29] <Otter> as i said, i've never really dug into it

[14:29] <obli_> theres lots of stuff in it about hindu ascetics

[14:29] <Otter> good point, Craig

[14:30] <obli_> which is thought provoking... all these guys pushing themselves to the limits of human endurance

[14:30] <Otter> a lot of the more egregious crap associated with islam is lke that too.  tribal customs that are conflated with religious law

[14:31] <@Craig> one of the primary teachings of Buddhism is the middle path...he tried asceticism and found it just nearly killed him.  

[14:31] <obli_> yeah

[14:31] <Otter> how did the world get so many buddhists?  

[14:31] <Otter> right

[14:31] <Otter> nearly killed him, but did not bring enlightenment

[14:31] <@Craig> nodnod

[14:32] <obli_> shinto is interesting

[14:32] <Otter> modern buddhism doesn't seem very evangelical.  how did it become so widespread?

[14:33] <obli_> by being better than hinduism in terms of providing "hope" i guess

[14:33] <@Craig> yea, I'd love to learn more about shinto, see it in action

[14:34] <obli_> like... you can pursue buddhist enlightenment no matter what your cast

[14:34] <obli_> caste

[14:34] <obli_> i visted a bunch of shrines when i went to japan

[14:34] <@Craig> cool

[14:34] <obli_> very inspirational

[14:35] <obli_> you can sort of see how temple complexes evolved watching people moving around from area to area at the rave

[14:36] <Otter> interesting thought

[14:37] <Otter> brb

[14:38] <obli_> its good becuase everyone is there for like a set amount of time, seeing out the longest night of the year

[14:38] <Otter> can you expand on that?

[14:39] <obli_> well you arrive in like early evening

[14:39] <obli_> then you mission around outside all night, dancing or sitting by the fire or crashing in your car/campsite or the chillout room

[14:41] <obli_> its pitch black out in the country... so you take something powerful.... and since you are basicly in the dark looking at lights

[14:41] <obli_> or watching the fire

[14:42] <obli_> it doesn't take much to keep on a buzz all night

[14:42] <obli_> and since its the longest night it's the longest trip :P

[14:44] <obli_> but i mean.. the interacting with nature... the coldest night... and the watching society play it's self out

[14:44] <obli_> and the lasers and electronic music

[14:45] <obli_> even if you were just drunk it would be pretty trippy

[14:45] <obli_> like.,. since its so cold eveyone is wraped up warm so its hard to tell who is who

[14:45] <Otter> so... you think that the temples started out as party sites?

[14:46] <obli_> and since its flu season people make involentary movments... sneezing and that

[14:46] <obli_> some of them must have

[14:46] == Craig [~Jax@c-71-198-121-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [raskah.hub.dal.net istanbul.hub.dal.net]

[14:46] == PonderWolf [~ponderwol@108-193-152-165.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #paganjourney

[14:46] <PonderWolf> MM

[14:46] <obli_> and public rituals

[14:47] <obli_> hi PonderWolf

[14:47] <obli_> if it were , halloween, new years and christmas

[14:47] <obli_> as well as wintersolstice

[14:47] <Otter> hi Roy

[14:48] <obli_> it would be quite overpowering to the senses

[14:48] <obli_> like... theres social akwardness thats hard to read in the dark

[14:48] <obli_> if everyone had masks on

[14:49] <obli_> then you'd probably brush it off as your imagination

[14:49] <obli_> and it would encorage people to act out a bit

[14:49] <obli_> prank people

[14:51] <obli_> and if it were new year as well when you are drunk and demons are popping out at you from the darkness might focus you on what you want to change about your life :P

[14:51] <Otter> lol

[14:52] <Otter> it could as easily go the other way, though

[14:52] <obli_> what other way

[14:53] <Otter> social layers built on top of what was originally a spiritual gathering

[14:53] <Otter> i suspect the actual evolution of traditions has both

[14:54] <obli_> i kind of feel paganism is mankinds natural spiritual/religious response that arises within us

[14:54] <obli_> or at least

[14:55] <obli_> its a hefty componant of what paganism is

[14:55] * Otter nods

[14:56] <Otter> paganism is that in an agricultural society.  shamanism (which exists also in paganism) is the backbone of the hunter-gatherer version

[14:56] <obli_> i think the thing about it happening on solstice is that no matter what the party is doing its also about being in/passing observance of nature

[14:57] * Otter nods

[14:57] <obli_> the sky and the cold are both very imediate

[14:57] <obli_> or the blackness anyway

[14:57] <obli_> depending on where you end up :P

[14:58] <Otter> it's hard to imagine a purely secular seasonal observance

[14:58] <TheWolf> Hey guys

[14:59] <Otter> wb, TheWolf

[14:59] <TheWolf> If it is possible for a witch to look at another's heart, is is possible to do healing on what we find there?

[14:59] <obli_> the baptist guy i think had useful things to say on putting yourself in a cycle with nature

[14:59] <obli_> hey TheWolf

[14:59] <TheWolf> hey obli_

[15:00] <obli_> hmm

[15:00] <obli_> maybe

[15:00] <obli_> as in... i think its possible

[15:00] <Otter> i agree, obli.  that's one of the things he got right

[15:01] <Otter> what he said about the seasons being more important than the gods is a useful point when trying to communicate with teh abrahamites too

[15:01] <TheWolf> I'm looking at a healing system called Ho'oponopono.  It says how everything we experience is our responsibility, and the universe exists in us, so we heal what we see in others, you are healing the part of ourselves that is responsible for that

[15:01] <Otter> i'll like use that next time i'm trying to explain how we can have more than one god

[15:01] <TheWolf> I was just wondering if I could create a hybrid approach where we use the power of looking into somebody elses heart

[15:01] <obli_> but you have to trust the person you are working with to take your advice in a sensible manner

[15:02] <obli_> to put it clumisly

[15:03] <Otter> healer, heal thyself

[15:03] <Otter> if you do that work, you can assist others in doing it

[15:04] <obli_> i'm deeply skeptical of the idea that we are responabile for everything in our lives

[15:04] <Otter> but ultimately, you're just a servant

[15:04] <Otter> the real healer is the afflicted

[15:05] <Otter> we are responsible in teh sense that we can respond to it

[15:05] <obli_> it lets the well off shrug their shoulders about ensuring society continues to function

[15:05] <obli_> becuase if things are going bad its the fault of those who are suffering

[15:06] <Otter> responsibility and fault are not the same

[15:06] <obli_> sounds p revolutionary otter

[15:06] <TheWolf> Well, the founder of the system was given a job in a prison for the criminally insane.  He did nothing but Ho'oponopono on them, not even seeing the patients, eventually, after 3 years all but 2 of the criminals were either healed or released and the whole place closed down.

[15:07] <Otter> brb

[15:09] <obli_> do you have much time for skeptics TheWolf

[15:09] <Otter> hmmm

[15:10] <TheWolf> Well, I don't think a skeptic would say anything I haven't already considered

[15:10] <Otter> i suspect a closer examination of the facts would reveal a different mechanism

[15:11] <Otter> obli, "p revolutionary"?

[15:12] <obli_> well i read it as saying

[15:12] <obli_> its the responsiblity of those who suffer to end their suffering

[15:13] <obli_> which is basicly asking for a revolution :P

[15:13] <Otter> what's a p revolution?

[15:13] <obli_> p(retty) revoltionary

[15:13] <obli_> sorry

[15:14] <Otter> okay

[15:14] <Otter> that was one positbiltiy

[15:14] <Otter> peasant was another

[15:14] <obli_> heh

[15:15] <obli_> well i didn't mean that :P

[15:15] <obli_> http://shambook.blogspot.co.nz/2006/08/word-is-hawaiian-for-give-me-your.html i think some of the comments here are worth considering TheWolf

[15:15] <Otter> i agree re, responsiblity and suffering

[15:16] <Otter> that's a problem relief workes often have when they bring resources into a troubled area

[15:16] <obli_> whats that

[15:17] <Otter> just giving people material things doesn't change the dysfunction of their social and economic systems

[15:17] <TheWolf> any in particular obli_?

[15:17] <Otter> often, it makes some things worse

[15:18] <obli_> There may be powerful invisible forces / energy fields that Western science just doesn’t have the tools to measure yet. Believe it or not, I’m open to that possibility, even in my advanced state of cynicism. But I reject the notion that “the Universe” is hovering over each of us like an obsequious waiter, ready to deliver anything we attract, good or bad, by our mere thoughts.

[15:18] <obli_>  I reject the notion that working on my own inner growth is going to heal the sick or solve world problems. And I certainly reject the notion that paying some guru a thousand bucks to spend a weekend learning about how to “get more” or “be more” is going to change most people’s lives in any significant way.

[15:18] <Otter> i should say "social and economic systems"

[15:18] <obli_> and the one under that TheWolf

[15:19] <obli_> i agree otter

[15:19] <Otter> it's not just the locals

[15:19] <Otter> it's the global wyrd

[15:19] <obli_> a revolution isn't about giving people things