salvation

<tomwitness> obli, when i say Church, i mean a people who worship Jesus who died on the cross for our salvation
<obli> i don't get it tom
<Psychedelikatsn> [10:14pm] <tomprophet>And God said, it's good to be gay
<obli> i don't get the appeal
<tomwitness> i worship God in Jesus, who is my Lord and my God
<Psychedelikatsn> [9:36pm] <tomprophet>wife said i was nuts
<Psychedelikatsn> [9:39pm] <tomprophet>she hates me on chat too
<sokie> tomwitness, you dont do your belief and/or church any favours by what you are pulling here. You might only convince them your church is not the place to be
<obli> whats so fucking attractive about the afterlife that drove you this mad?
<obli> are you that scared of dying :P ?
<tomwitness> obli, because salvation of our souls is for our eternal life
<Psychedelikatsn> [2:14am] <tombiker>i believe Jesus can heal bad eggs
<obli> i get what you beleive tomwitness
<obli> i just don't get why its attractive to you
<Argo> tom, you lie consistently, you come in here and monopolize the room with your banal and self serving lies ... it's obvious
<tomwitness> obli, its about going to heaven
<Psychedelikatsn> [2:06am] <tombiker>i also tried lighting candles and prayer over an elderly woman, and i got demons
<MinisterSam> Caught a bad case of demons.
<Psychedelikatsn> Insane Wayne stfu
<obli> are you that scared of dying tomwitness ?
<obli> really?
<tomwitness> obli, if you want to go to heaven, you must obey the will of God the Father, for if we obey His will, we go to heaven
<Argo> public service post:  copy and paste this ...   /ignore tomwitness
<Psychedelikatsn> [10:45pm] <tombiker>i have a mental illness
<sokie> obli, i experience the concept of afterlife the most powerful tool of manipulation in my christian part of life
<Psychedelikatsn> [2:19am] <tombiker>i can't find the 11th commandment
<obli> are you that dangerous tomwitness?
<obli> that you deserve to be cursed with this mental shackle?
<Psychedelikatsn> <tombiker> how come in real life i have no friends and here in chat i have none, a coincidence maybe?
<tomwitness> obli, Jesus promised to save me, i believe him
<tomwitness> obli, Jesus gave me a command to obey
<Argo> tom, when jesus said be baptized of water and spirit he didn't mean scotch and soda
<tomwitness> obli, Jesus said, if you obey my command then you will be my disciple
<tomwitness> i dont drink alcohol anymore Argo
<obli> tomwitness i see no attraction in being his disciple
<obli> there are far more beautiful gods

mental illness

<seethirty> It is to be remarked, in connection with the works just enumerated, that ALLAN KARDEC
<seethirty> was not a "medium," and was consequently obliged to avail himself of the medianimity of
<seethirty> others in obtaining the spirit-communications from which they were evolved.
<seethirty> that is interesting
<seethirty> he diverted his life away from 'academia' so completely, and yet wasn't a medium himself
<obli> i dunno
<obli> -trying- to be a medium seems like a path to delusion
<seethirty> well what i mean is, he visited mediums
<seethirty> but he didn't have any of these visions, or experiences, himself
<seethirty> btw, what anime do you watch?
<seethirty> do you know Yu Yu Hakusho?
<obli> yeah
<@Otter> you don't believe it's something that can be learned, Obli?
<obli> he realised he wassn't a medium
<seethirty> one of my favorites
<obli> i do otter
<@Otter> wouldn't one have to try in order to learn?
<obli> but i think the kind of person who would set out to learn it and be capible of achiving it would face a path fraught with dead ends
<seethirty> i'm speaking from a purely technical standpoint.. why write a book on the philosophy of being a plumber, if you're not a plumber?
<seethirty> that's possible yes
<obli> why write a book on advarks if you arn't an advark?
* @Otter nods
<@Otter> that's true, Obli.  it takes practice to learn the difference between signal and noise
<seethirty> touche :P
<obli> becuase advarks have remarkable qualities worthy of comment and none of the advarks have written any books addressing these points :P
<@Otter> and between useful signals and signals that encourage delusion
<obli> i think its easy to fall into trying to hard
<@Otter> in order to expand your perceptions, you have to allow yourself to suggestible
<obli> look at all the things tugging at you and dicern which one is which
<@Otter> that will get you all sorts of input, much of it quite useless
* @Otter nods
* seethirty (seethirty@50-89-37-175.res.bhn.net) Quit (Ping timeout)
<@Otter> many people don't get farther than that.  or they latch onto a sou rce that provides them with wonder at teh ex pense of truth
<@Otter> basically, they're playing an RPG with spirit partners
<obli> you'll have to eleaborate on that metaphor
<@Otter> OTOH, it's a delusion to think that the spirit world doesn't exist, or that we can't access it
<@Otter> or that we don't access it subconciously on a regular basis
<@Otter> rpg = role playing game, not rocket propelled grenade
<obli> its a complicated thing
<@Otter> does that help?
<obli> yeah
<obli> no
<obli> i mean
<obli> like its like playing an rpg as in = kids stuff or..?
* @Otter nods
<@Otter> a fantasy
<obli> yeah
<@Otter> you get to be the star, for intance, i a great struggle between good and evil
<@Otter> your spirit friends get some of your energy
<@Otter> everyone is happy
<@Otter> for a while, anyway
<obli> yeah
<obli> its probably a good trip
<obli> for a couple of days
<obli> :P
<obli> then it all starts going horrificly wrong
<obli> and it you ever realise it
<obli> if
<obli> you could never trust any spiritual experiance again
<obli> which i guess is why so many people become so uncritically accepting of any garbage they come across as long as is presented in the correct tome
<obli> tone
<obli> because everything is right
<obli> so i'm not wrong to stick to my guns all the way to the bottom :P
<@Otter> people don't like uncertainty

mouseship story

<obli> listen my children i'll tell you a tale, of the tiniest mouse thats as big as a whale

<obli> this wonderful mouse was so tame and so hale, men summited its back errecting both mast and sail

<obli> so the mouse became a great mouse ship, who could cross any ocean without even a drip

<obli> they set out to china all laiden with gold, returned with as much silk as a mouseship can hold

<obli> it made the brash captain a rich man indeed, which is good because a mouseship is expensive to feed

<obli> but greed beats out wisdom most times you see, the captain worked out he could feed it for free

<obli> so he let the ship loose over village and dale, it ate farmers food by the barrel and pail

the farmers were furious and petitioned the king, who sent all his soldiers to deal with this thing

obli> the soldiers arrived and laid eyes on the brute, then to a man went on strike for an increase in loot

<obli> when the king finally heard all his men were afraid, he thought "bugger those cowards they arn't worth what they're paid"

so he mounted his steed and onward he set, "reason shall win out where violence didn't i bet"


i care not for the future just for myself
there still comes a point where you have enough wealth

occultism, paganism and diversity

<obli> hi Sophrosyne
<Sophrosyne> Hello obli
<obli> may i ask you a question
<Sophrosyne> Sure
<obli> do you feel like you are a part of the "occult community"
<obli> or subculture
<obli> or however you would characterise it
<Sophrosyne> No
<Sophrosyne> I suppose to an extent I am apart of the Pagan community
<obli> well would you characterise the pagan community as seperate from the occult community?
<Sophrosyne> I sort of think that Occultism is more of a chosen practice than a community
<obli> i dunno Sophrosyne
<obli> theres sort of a common pool of beleifs... and theres deffinatly an occult media
<obli> mostly expressed in books
* Sophrosyne nods
<obli> but to a lesser extent in periodicals and online
<obli> anyway sorry got side tracked
<obli> how do you feel about reprentation of minorities in pagan media
<Sophrosyne> What do you mean by minorities?
<obli> non europeans
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<Tj_> Dang internet..sry what didi miss?
<obli> i'm asking Sophrosyne what his opinion is on issues of reprentation in pagan media
<obli> representation
<Sophrosyne> obli: There is definitely an Anglo-Celtic bias in Pagan media
<Sophrosyne> I definitely think ANYTHING outside that spectrum needs to be more strongly emphasized
<Sophrosyne> But as far as the racial background of individual Pagans, I'm not sure it's neccessary
<obli> i don't think the celtic/british bias is paticularily helpful for celtic paganism *
* Sophrosyne nods
<obli> but the majority of current output is the degenerate run off of the horriffic cancer of the 70's :P
<obli> imo
<Sophrosyne> Heh
<Sophrosyne> Hippies
<Sophrosyne> I just file that under "Why I'm a Reconstructionist"
<Tj_> What's pagan media?
<Tj_> Yes, I agree with Sophrosyne
<obli> do you think people producing pagan media (esspecially when depicting contempary paganism) have an obligation to show diversity?
<Sophrosyne> YES
<Sophrosyne> and ACTUAL diversity
<Sophrosyne> Not WICCAH
<Sophrosyne> And ONLY WICCAH
<Sophrosyne> lol
<obli> i mean ethnic diversity :P
<Sophrosyne> No, they aren't
<Sophrosyne> I'm sorry, but a lot of blacks and hispanics just aren't interested in Paganism
<Sophrosyne> That's not anybody's fault
<obli> i just wonder if that is because of subtle forms of descrimination like lack of representation
<Tj_> Meh, I think path diversity is a bigger problem
<Tj_> Btw just something random I wanted to share:
<Tj_> "roses are red
<Tj_> my name is dave
<Tj_> this poem makes no sense
<Tj_> microwave"
<Sophrosyne> Nerds = Middle class white people
<Sophrosyne> That's the MAIN reason
<Sophrosyne> But it doesn't mean there aren't other groups. There are a bunch of asians, blacks, and hispanics in the nerd group I'm in, and I've met plenty of minorities in Pagan groups
<Sophrosyne> Also, especially in America, the population is still about 50-60% white
<Tj_> Hey I'm neither middle class not white and I'm a nerd (I think)
<obli> 50-60% white doesn't seem like alot :P
<Sophrosyne> It isn't
<Sophrosyne> There are just trends in certain communities
<Sophrosyne> But it's not everybody
<Sophrosyne> We don't have a responsibility to promote other ethnic groups - that just creates a false diversity
<Sophrosyne> And makes us look like we're pandering
<obli> yeah
<obli> that is a concern
<Sophrosyne> Things should just be organic
<Sophrosyne> It you force it, it just falls apart
<obli> i just worry such an enviroment may be attractive to racists
<Sophrosyne> If it can happen, it will happen
* Tj_ (~Tjh@49.248.226.225) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
<Sophrosyne> It's more important to develop ways of dealing with it
<Sophrosyne> Nobody should act based on paranoia
<Sophrosyne> Just state what you're about clearly, and *generally* people will understand
<obli> you are probably correct
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<Sophrosyne> http://www.bandia.net/caorann/
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<obli> cheers
<obli> i dunno if i neccicarrily agree with you about an obligation to show a diversity of paths... as a general rule
<Sophrosyne> At the very least, they should make other paths available
<obli> i think thats something each path should be capible of handling for it's self
<obli> publishing its own media
<Sophrosyne> obli: That makes it hard for people to find out about something that isn't Wicca
<Sophrosyne> A lot of people don't find out anything else because they don't know any better
<Sophrosyne> Anyways. I need to get my oil changed
<obli> i question if they would be interested
<Sophrosyne> I'm gonna get going
<obli> no worries
<obli> thanks for your input
<Sophrosyne> Your welcome
<Sophrosyne> later

<+obli> Dragonatrix may i ask you something?
<+Dragonatrix> You just did?
<+obli> Dragonatrix may i ask you something else?
<+Dragonatrix> Yes
<+obli> do you feel like you are a part of the "occult community"
<+Dragonatrix> Not overly
<+obli> do you feel like their are people who are signifigantly more a part of it than yourself?
<+obli> there
<+Dragonatrix> Of course. The occult community in general has much more of a neo pagan, new age lean. Which does not sit well with me so I distance myself from it and keep over in the corner with others closer in view
<+obli> may i ask what path you follow?
<+Dragonatrix> You have already
<+obli> yeah i forget who is what in here... sorry
<+Dragonatrix> Draconian occultist, very close to chaosophy
<+obli> cool
<+obli> anyway what i really wanted to ask is, how do you feel about the representation of ethnic minorities in the media produced by the occult community (i.e. books, magazines and online)
<+Dragonatrix> The gender bias is much more alarming then racial bias
<+obli> it seems less obvious speaking as a male pagan*
<+obli> it = that
<+Dragonatrix> Here in the media it's primarily marketed as a hippie women's movement more than anything
<+obli> i mean in its own media
<+obli> not the mainstream media
<+Dragonatrix> So do I
<+obli> i can see where you are coming from
<+obli> maybe i avoid alot of the material
<+obli> as i tend to pick up everything secondhand
<+Dragonatrix> Every magazine I pick up to nose through at the stores i go groc shopping that has to deal with paganism is all about the young freespirited women who bestow the new aged ideals
<+obli> and have alot more time for people like hutton (and actuall academics) rather than people will assumed names and titles :P
<+obli> will = with
<+obli> i guess so
* Ibuki (LibraIRC@DE9E40.18D17F.75C1A3.977C8C) has joined #innercircle
<@Nostrodamus> Merry Meet Ibuki! Welcome to #innercircle!
<+obli> magazines are rare here
<+obli> and books are (comparatively) common
<+obli> and the gender imballance doesn't seem quite as huge
<+obli> there
<+Dragonatrix> We get a lot of little free periodicals around town. Sometimes they have something worth a glance over while waiting in line
<+obli> do the models used display much diversity?
<+Dragonatrix> A lot of latina, some mixed black, tanned white
<+Dragonatrix> And a good chunk of asian in the yoga ones
<+obli> sounds very new age
<+Dragonatrix> Very culturally diverse area, they try to fit that into the material
<+Dragonatrix> Curious though,  are you getting things from areas that would be predominantly of one race (where biodiversity would not be an issue like here)
<+obli> how do you mean?
<+obli> areas that would be predominantly of one race
<+obli> specific traditions?
<+obli> or the country i live in?
<+Dragonatrix> Like buying  material from europe and surprised there is no Hispanic
<+obli> most material i come across is british
<+Dragonatrix> That would explain
<+obli> not neccicarrily
<+obli> britian is fairly multicultural
* Hajime- is now known as Hajime
<+Dragonatrix> Can't say I've seen much diversity in media
<+obli> yeah
<+obli> yeah
<+obli> oh
<+obli> you mean in general (american?) depictions of the united kingdom?
<+Dragonatrix> No I mean what makes it over here from there or things I was shown by people from over there
<+obli> occult material?
<+Dragonatrix> Got a lot of things from Britain when I was gonna fly over there to see about dating someone of asian decent. He was insistent on me buying clothes like over there dresses etc
<+Dragonatrix> All occultists I know over there were pure bred anglo
<+obli> don't know any welsh or scots?
<+Dragonatrix> Not that are into the occult
<+Dragonatrix> Those fall under the white category usually anyways
<+obli> "white" isn't "anglo" :P
<+Dragonatrix> Is over here when you check race box... boxes in my case
<+obli> yeah... theres quite a wide gulf in the way race is viewed between america and britian
<+obli> or america and the commonwealth
<+obli> or the countries in the commonwealth themselves :P
<+Dragonatrix> We'd have a huge issue if it broke down anything other than skin color lol
<+Dragonatrix> Not many of us are one anything
<+obli> well america is automaticly diffrent as the majority of people of european decent are not british
<+obli> and its not like canada where theres a clear deliniation between the french a british populations
<+obli> in terms of geography
<+Dragonatrix> Cities would do that but not whole sections of the country. But even so it's too common for whites to be irish, italian, British,  and french mix... for one check race hit "white" lol
<+obli> i'm half italian
<+Dragonatrix> I'm a 10 nation mutt
<+obli> i'm basicly immersed in new zealand culture
<+obli> or pakeha culture
<+obli> which if you have any intrest in history quickly becomes british culture
<+obli> :P
<+Dragonatrix> Most of that area does

paganism and protestantism

obli> what kinds of paganism are popular in france
<Otter> i've heard a fair amount about french druids.
<Otter> popular?  probalby not
<Otter> but they exist
<obli> i think... in countries with a protestant bent... the church doesn't service either "magical" or "folkloric" or even "mystic" values well
<Otter> i don't think i've ever met a french pagan online, but then, i've met very few people from france period
<obli> which allows for a bigger "gap in the market" for occult stores to step in and fill... creating an outlet for occult writings
<Otter> how would you class england?
<obli> i think anglicanism is more attractive to people intersted in at least the folkloric/heritage aspects than most protestant denominations... but i don
<Otter> there is probably something to that.  some of the protestant sects certainly seem to think so, as they're promoting a christian alternative
<obli> 't think i've ever seen an "anglican store"
<obli> i imagine most christian stores in the uk are general protestant and filled largely with american protestant material
<obli> like they are in most english speaking countries
<Otter> hmmm, maybe
<Otter> they seem less interested in church over there, in general
<obli> same here
<obli> even more so
<obli> and in aussie
<obli> but
<obli> theres still christian stores
<obli> but theres no room in them for anything old and cultural that doesn't come from the bible
<Otter> i'm not sure i've ever been in a christian store, so i don't know much about them
<obli> so so irrelivant
<Otter> i've visited a few spiirtual bookshops that included christian material, but they had things for other traditions too
<obli> protestant churches in general exist to impose a christian culture on their followers... they don't have much room for celebrating the culture of the local they are located in
<obli> unless its a protestant store in isreal/palistine i guess
<obli> ;P
<Otter> lol
<Otter> the chuch i grew up with may have been something like that
<Otter> dunno about "imposing"
<obli> catholic stores are alot less hostile to that kind of thing
<Otter> there wasn't much pressure and i don't recall evangelism even being mentioned
<obli> also catholic societies are far less denominational
<Otter> but they did have a very strong hierarchy
<obli> so i imagine it has a chilling effect on any potential pagan movements building
<Otter> local congregation did not choose their pastor, and when the sr pastor retired, and the well-liked jur pastor was transfered, they had no say
<obli> becuase theres no chance of ever being recognized as a legitimate spiritual body of equal standing
<obli> so why ever expand beyond being a working circle/ school?
<Otter> also the caotholic/anglican/episcopalian tradition retains more polytheism
<obli> yes
<obli> but anglicanism is essentually fence sitting
<Otter>  i don't realy think the anglicans are protestant.  the anglican church was formed becuase the king wanted a divorce.
<Otter> it didn't have anything to do with reform
<Otter> well, if you're from england, it's probalby the fence you were born on
<obli> and so while as a church it has (some) of the advantages of catholism (at combating the rise of intrest in the occult), the way its parishinors are marketed too entirely undoes it
<Otter> marketed?
<obli> the religious products presented to them
<obli> in new zealand, there are traditionaly 3 main churches
<Otter> are we talking about parephrenelia?
<obli> yes
<Otter> what's wrong with angican religious goods?
<obli> anglican, presbytarian, and catholic, who all have about the same ammount of members
<obli> in this city (and in many places around the country) there is a chain of protestant oriented stores called "mana"
<Otter> first and last would be pretty similar here.  presbys are pretty much at the eother end of the spectrum, or at least the church in my town seems to be
<obli> they carry alot of american religious paraphrenelia
<obli> they carry almost no catholic stuff
<obli> so there is also a small catholic store here
<obli> that sells catholic idols and candles and so forth
<obli> basicly protestant store owners see anglicans as being part of their spiritual family or what have you... so have no problem carrying items for them
<obli> the same isn't true of catholics
<Otter> hmmm.  so, you can't buy a picture of the pope.  what else would be specifically catholic.  a rosary?
<obli> so basicly if you are an anglican... and serious... you are be going to be confronted with alot of hardline protestant material and very little that hardline protestants regard as suspicious
<obli> crosses with jesus on them Otter
<obli> statues of mary
<Otter> really?
<obli> those little fonts for holy water
<obli> yer
<obli> roseries
<Otter> here some protestant churches have statues of jesus on the cross in their sanctuary
<obli> yeah
<Otter> yeah, holy water seems pretty catholic
<obli> becuase how is the laity going to tell the church its not christian enough
<obli> :P
<obli> a bussiness is at the hands of its customers
<Otter> naturally
<obli> the hardcore protestants who buy tons of christian fire and brimstone books probably won't shop in a store that sells statues of mary
<Otter> but i suspect the just wooden beams vs horror show decision probably has to do with the nature of the message
<obli> where as an anglican doesn't have much choice
<Otter> fire and brimstone types are more likely to go for the gore
<Otter> churches that don't emphasize the crucifiion are more likely to have a simple cross as a symbol of the religion
<Otter> and not call constant attention to what it represents
<Otter> ah, i meant churches
<Otter> yeah, religious retails shops would want to avoid pissing off their customers
<Otter> probalby woudnd't find much non-christian spiritual literature in either flavor of chistian store
<obli> but yeah it means that anglicans lack that venue to push their world view
<Otter> hmmmm
<Otter> if the chrsitian population is 1/3 anglican, why aren't there anglican stores?
<Otter> seems there ought to be enough demand, at least in cities
<obli> yeah but at least the saints and that happened in places people might have some connection too... and also encorage an intrest in history and so forth... seems more forfilling than an constant diet of bible... and steals some thunder from paganism
01[23:15] <obli> mana is a general protestant store
[23:15] <Otter> but not sufficient for pushing anglicanism?
01[23:16] <obli> hmm
01[23:16] <obli> i guess demographics have changed quite a bit since i was a kid
01[23:16] <obli> there are now more catholics 28% than all protestants put together
[23:17] <Otter> so less than half identify as christian?
01[23:17] <obli> yeah
01[23:17] <obli> no religion = 35%
01[23:18] <obli> Spiritualism and New Age religions[edit]
01[23:18] <obli> This collection of religious beliefs is represented by around 0.5% of the New Zealand population.[1]
01[23:20] <obli> :P
[23:21] <Otter> according the wikipedia, the US is 60-78% christian
[23:21] <Otter> 15-37% unafiliated
[23:21] <Otter> 0.1% pagan
01[23:21] <obli> :P
01[23:22] <obli> we are probably less
01[23:22] <obli> less than 1 in 1000 :(
01[23:22] <obli> prehaps i should move to the uk
[23:24] <Otter> it's an option
[23:24] <Otter> i think their pagan numbers might be inflated by campaigns using the designation as a banner for religious diversity
[23:26] <Otter> it's one hell of a lot easier to find a druid there, though
[23:29] <Otter> our census burea isn't allowed to ask about religion, hence the numbers tend to come with some bias
[23:30] <Otter> i've read some pretty ridiculous statistics about what people here supposedly believe
[23:32] <Otter> the only way i can see getting 50% or better believing in creationism or that the world is only 6000 years old is if the survey was a church exit pole conducted by the ministers of a particular sect

approaches to godhead

<Sophrosyne> The less well constructed an ancient mythology, the more modern people will create a new version of it
<Sophrosyne> And claim it's true
<oblivion> i dunno.. i think at the core... focus comes from shared gods
<Sophrosyne> Gods are nothing without some point of reference
<Sophrosyne> Otherwise they are just names on a tablet
<oblivion> well in practice i think there are a limited number of apporaches that happen irl
<oblivion> so if two people agree on the name and approach
<oblivion> thats as good as you are going to get
<Sophrosyne> http://www.templeofsumer.org/
<oblivion> even within greece forms of worship varied quite widely by time and place
<oblivion> i tend to look at the entire known history of the god in question (as much as i am capible... i do alot of research)
<oblivion> well up to my cut off date anyway
* Sophrosyne nods
<oblivion> in classical cults there was alot of (god) of the (natural phenomenon) where a god had many diffrent aspects
<Sophrosyne> Yes
<Sophrosyne> And many epithets
<Sophrosyne> All of which have been studied
<oblivion> as long as post classical interpritations of the god in question don't fall outside the gods general character i'll take them into consideration