Two kinds of paganism, on Evola's "against the Neo-Pagans"

Evola's 'against the neo-pagans' is a short essay but it's so couched in rhetoric and sloppy argumentation that it's hard to find a concise segment of it that is the 'crux' of the argument that doesn't require pages of footnotes of clarification and exceptions. I think he's making the argument for a reason though... there's a kernel of something he believes that impelled him to write the essay.

"There is a general and unmistakable tendency in neo-paganism to create a new, superstitious mysticism, based on the glorification of immanence, of Life and Nature, which is in the sharpest contrast to that Olympian and heroic ideal of the great Aryan cultures of pre-Christian antiquity." is the closest he comes to directly stating his thesis

I'm going to put it out there. What do you guys think of the idea there are two paganisms? A nature embracing "folk" or "neo" paganism, and a transcendent "high" paganism, linked to philosophical moralising, and ideas "spiritual aristocracy".

There isn't really a good vocabulary to discuss it because it's not something widely articulated in most post-gardarian thinking on paganism, but it was a theme in the discussion on the topic in the early 20th century.

Evola probably came the closest to articulating it in "against the neo-pagans". Which, given how despicable Evola is, is worth considering from the perspective of the "neo-pagans" he is attacking, imo, because I think there is a core of a distinction there, behind the rhetoric and propaganda.... Something about the reason wicca looks like it does compared to whatever currents within paganism that spawned Augustus Sol Invictus.
yeats touches on a similar (though less drastic) idea of two paganisms in his essay on "The Philosophy of Shelley’s Poetry"

there's definitely an undercurrent of it in Christian writing on paganism (at  least pre-1950) in that christian writers seem to take a strict view of "progress" in pre-christian spirituality... the philosophic schools containing more truth than the mystery religions which contain more truth, or are "higher" than the ancient cults, which are regarded as having no truth value
the same could be said for theosophy (and to a lesser extent rosicrucianism) taking the philosophers as teachers one step under buddha or jesus and the goals of the mystery religions as noble or worthy, but rarely considering the rural cults... beneath their notice

I guess it's paganism, in as much as the deification of emperors is paganism.
and I see currents of it in most reconstructionism, at the very least

It definitely has affinities
I'll stress that I don't know if the vocabulary exists to discuss this easily yet, and if it does I've managed to overlook it.
Sorry I'm going to reread my yeats, since I think he described it best in spiritual (rather than political) terms
or got closer to the heart of the diffrence
... maybe this gets closest to it (in a short paragraph at least)

"In ancient times, it seems to me that Blake, who for all his protest was glad to be alive, and ever spoke of his gladness, would have worshipped in some chapel of the Sun, but that Shelley, who hated life because he sought ‘more in life than any understood,’ would have wandered, lost in ceaseless reverie, in some chapel of the Star of infinite desire."
the difference between acceptance, taking the world on its own terms, and a striving that sees authority invested in individuals who claim a more "advanced" spiritual state
a certain humanism sits well with "neo paganism"
the violent rejection out of hand of 'humanism' certainly serves rightwing interests better than leftwing ones...  part of it is attributable to the vector of its insertion recently though (john halstead)
I guess when I say 'a certain humanism' I mean the kind of humanism embraced by shakespeare or pratchett, the ability to take people as they are

the further you go down that sort of gnostic, world denying path, the more acceptable perennialism becomes... as you start to see the object of your strivings as the creation of a "spiritually perfect" being
which would of course fit in equally well at the top of any spiritual hierarchy

i'm a long way from being able to articulate it but... for the rightwing they see in paganism ideas of spiritual aristocracy and divine kingship... but there are elements in paganism they reject, sometimes stringently. i just I'm trying to puzzle out if a paganism comprised of -those- elements is healthier.

conversation about dungeoncrawls

oblivion - Last Thursday at 7:36 PM
are dungeoncrawls the only good game genre?
can you make a good rpg that isn't a dungeon crawl, that doesn't end up with all kind of vestigal deformities?(edited)
ness - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
well is pokemon a dungeoncrawl?
oblivion - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
yes
ness - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
could you define dungeoncrawl?
fire emblem is not dungeoncrawl?
although it has roquelike elements
anyone have a 3ds and want to team up on the f2p kirby game?
oblivion - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
fire embliem is a tactical rg
ness - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
yes
but still rpg(edited)
when I think of dungeoncrawl I think of only dungeons like instances like diablo
but that is arpg
what are you looking for exactly oblivion can you give an example?(edited)
ness - Last Thursday at 10:57 PM
@oblivion  you always stop in the middle of the chat, meanie :frowning:
https://pics.onsizzle.com/error-cat-exe-has-stopped-working-memecenter-com-cat-error-3-4038605.png

April 14, 2017
XT0 - Yesterday at 5:43 AM
I'm thinkin of dungeon crawls now
oblivion - Yesterday at 11:56 AM
:open_mouth:
XT0 - Yesterday at 1:05 PM
What is the point of a dungeon crawl?
oblivion - Yesterday at 1:06 PM
to crawl the world
to rescue the mcguffin
bring back the treasures
basically it centres gameplay around combat
which creates a more mechanically focused game
Pandorf - Yesterday at 1:10 PM
It depends. A dungeon can be transformative when looked over the long term, from the point of view of a campaign, but similarly it can be mundane in its effects, even with a fantastic environment. In general, dungeon crawls provide adventure, loot, and a framework for overall gameplay. Pretty typical stop for gaining experience.
oblivion - Yesterday at 1:12 PM
bbiab
XT0 - Yesterday at 1:32 PM
I mean in general it's either underground or if above ground then confined within a very set area. The goal is usually to go deeper and deeper to 1. Mcguffin or 2. A person . Alternately the goal of the dungeon crawl can be to escape the dungeon.
Pandorf - Yesterday at 1:32 PM
As in LoG, I suppose
oblivion - Yesterday at 2:12 PM
it gives the designer a lot of control
it can be as linear or non linear as they like
XT0 - Yesterday at 2:45 PM
I guess it kind of goes back to why there are "dungeons" in dungeons & dragons
oblivion - Yesterday at 2:46 PM
well we solved that mystery...
now
why are there dragons?
but yeah... it's really easy to manage the final objective with a dungeon
also manage game length
XT0 - Yesterday at 6:52 PM
why delve into the labyrinth, to find the center or to get out?
oblivion - Yesterday at 7:05 PM
to kill the mini tor
you ever heard of 'Meikyuu Kingdom'?
a japanese tabletop rpg
it takes place in a world where something called the "dungeon hazard" has turned everything into a tile based dungeon
Before the Dungeon Hazard, the stars hung an unfathomable distance high up in the “Night Sky”. This story is hard to believe, but evidence from various sources suggests it to be true. The expanding dungeon swallowed up the “Sky” and the stars which were all so far away are now near enough to touch.

the dungeon is hermetic
a location unto itself
it implies total environmental control
an assurance of the designed that cannot be garenteed outside of the dungeon
light has to be consciously placed
atmospheres can be controlled
there's something in there about being separated from the regular functioning of society
total agency
what happens in the dungeon stays in the dungeon
it means every social interaction has to be negotiated from square one
April 15, 2017
kurukurukururin - Today at 5:06 AM
Wow super inspiring! You always find incredibly cool stuff oblivion!
Ogre Battle games are neither dungeon crawling nor tactics. It has an overworld like a tactics game, but characters freely roam in any zone
XT0 - Today at 5:51 AM
That's some good shit
Yeah, the dungeon is very game like. It's this isolated space, some 'organisms' even adapts to dungeon life  (things like mimics). It also almost always is a place that someone had already been to before but has been lost or forgotten by time, or the dungeon has consumed the previous investigator.
mastersword1
XT0 - Today at 6:26 AM
The Minotaur is a very interesting/important thing as well. The game I played Old city: Leviathan had no enemies except ones that were off in the distance or hallucinations; there were signs of minotaurs all over but then you find out that you might be a minotaur yourself?
There were a bunch of secret notes in the game and o didn't end up getting them all
XT0 - Today at 7:17 AM
Has anyone played the SCP game?
oblivion - Today at 9:32 AM
splc?
terry_cosmo - Today at 12:49 PM
"why delve into the labyrinth, to find the center or to get out?" this sentence has been bounding in my head since I read it yesterday
and precisely today, playing Earthbound, I met this guy
http://walkthrough.starmen.net/earthbound/image/screens/11/brickroad.png

To find the center or to get out...it's a really important question. gotta ponder it more
oblivion - Today at 12:51 PM
didn't daedalus make the labrynth
terry_cosmo - Today at 12:55 PM
ohhhhh...........father of Icarus? hmmm. the son of the underground-maker comes flying out into the overground / sun
sorry if I repeat this too much, but the game Kid Icarus was released on December 19, which is Saggitarius
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/kidicarus/images/7/7d/Pit-Fortune_Bow-Uprising.png/revision/latest?cb=20160122060647

the dungeon / the sky.....
XT0 - Today at 1:06 PM
In the show Westworld the maze is an important symbol and plot point http://static3.thisisinsider.com/image/581f65906acfdb21008b467e-1190-625/every-time-the-mysterious-maze-pattern-has-appeared-on-westworld.jpg

Some people are trying to find the center, and others are trying to find the edges
terry_cosmo - Today at 1:07 PM
ahhh, the edges....
XT0 - Today at 1:11 PM
Daedelus, the maker of the labyrinth has an item named after him in Dota 2, as well as a few characters whose plot points revolve around guarding or enforcing some lore specific maze "Narrow Maze"
--
Among the emblematic powers that populate the Underscape, Razor the Lightning Revenant is one of the most feared. With his whip of lightning, he patrols the Narrow Maze, that treacherous webwork of passages by which the souls of the dead are sorted according to their own innate intelligence, cunning and persistence. Drifting above the Maze, Razor looks down on the baffled souls below, and delivers jolts of scalding electricity that both punish and quicken the souls as they decide their own fates, hurrying on toward luminous exits or endlessly dark pits. Razor is the eternal embodiment of a dominating power, abstract and almost clinical in his application of power. Yet he has a lordly air that suggests he takes a sardonic satisfaction in his work.(edited)
--
Perched atop the entrance to the Narrow Maze sit the looming shapes of sneering gargoyles, the paths into the hereafter forever in their gaze. Beasts and birds, men and monsters, all creatures that die and choose to travel beyond must someday pass beneath their sight. For an untethered spirit, the decision to journey through the veil of death is irrevocable. When chance comes, and by craft or cunning some restless soul escapes their hells and heavens, it is the dreaded gargoyle Visage, the bound form of the eternal spirit Necro'lic, who is dispatched to reclaim them. Ruthless and efficient, unhindered by the principles of death and fatigue, Visage stalks its prey without mercy or end, willingly destroying all which may give shelter to the fugitive essence. That which flaunts the laws of the afterlife may never rest, for while it is true that the dead may be revived, it is only a matter of time before Visage finds and returns them to their proper place.(edited)
oblivion - Today at 6:55 PM
hmm
i was thinking this afternoon
that the dungeon grants the player an agency that is lacking in city settings
in rpgs that revolve around social interaction
character progression in terms of xp growth is set by the game designer
like... you tricked the blacksmith 50xp
very scripted growth
HarbaronSnaps - Today at 6:57 PM
unrelated If you guys like HL1, check out Sven Co-op on steam
It's hl1 but co-op with up to 8 people and has custom missions and shit. highly entertaining, and nostalgic.
level ups and stuff are sorta built into our current society
i mean thats what a promotion is
and if youve ever seen a sails boiler room
oblivion - Today at 6:58 PM
where a combat focused game you can't rely on the player actually completing any specific combat
HarbaronSnaps - Today at 6:58 PM
they act like every sale is a kill
oblivion - Today at 6:58 PM
they are free to run
and to the extent that any interaction in the dungeon is my necessity very controlled