Truth and Race

[13:25] <obli> i think i came across them when looking into anne besant, one of the leaders of theosophy

[13:25] <obli> the story i read was originally the confrence space was to be used by her, but there was some kind of issue and it ended up being used by jung

[13:29] <obli> the wiki article has been considerably whitewashed since i last looked at it though... i have a feeling it may have been some kind of falling out over her views on race that lead to it being given to the eranos group

[13:30] <PonderWolf> Well, if Jung and Campbell approve of it, then it is worth exploring.

[13:31] <PonderWolf> What are her views on race?

[13:33] <obli> do you know much about theosophy? a lot of its concentrates on the idea of sub-races and root-races and all kinds of racial stuff

[13:35] <obli> "In considering the problem of South Africa, let us realise that we have in our coloured races there people of entirely different types. We have the whole of those whom we can really call savages, some of them gentle, some warlike and turbulent, but none of them fitted for any form of citizenship…then there are the people who come over from India, who are Aryans…who belong to a highly civilised race and have the instincts of the civilised man"

[13:35] <obli> -besant

[13:37] <PonderWolf> Not an uncommon point of view for the time.

[13:46] == Orioa [Elite12434@alpha.elitebnc.org] has left #paganjourney []

[13:50] <obli> yeah... i can't remember the details of the falling out.. but i thought having this occult forerunner to the jungian conffrence was interesting

[13:52] <PonderWolf> Unfortunately most are becoming so PC that it is wrong to look at the truth.

[14:00] <obli> there are truths more overarching

[14:02] <PonderWolf> How do you figure?

[14:04] <obli> Just my reading of the wyrd of civilisation, ymmv depending on whether or not you beleive in progress

[14:05] <obli> as a thing that happens

[14:05] <PonderWolf> Truth is truth, period, in my opinion.

[14:08] <obli> the social interrelations between entities aren't objective truths, that's why magic exists

[14:08] <obli> there are many truths and many possible truths

[14:09] <PonderWolf> Explain.

[14:10] <obli> take the class system, it's true that classes exist right?

[14:10] <PonderWolf> A possible truth is not a truth, it is only a theory.

[14:11] == Moonshadow [~AndChat22@172.56.40.253] has joined #paganjourney

[14:11] <PonderWolf> A truth is a fact you can prove., If you can not prove it, then it is an opinion or theory.

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[14:11] <PonderWolf> Yup, I'll be going to class monday.

[14:11] <obli> we could change it overnight through an act of collective will... its not a truth in the same way gravity is a truth

[14:12] <PonderWolf> Then its not truth.

[14:12] <obli> sorry i don't buy that its -the truth- that "savages" are unsuited for any form of citizenship man :P

[14:13] <PonderWolf> And I submitt to you that it would be easier to change the laws of gravity than it would be to change social and racial class's.

[14:14] <obli> perhaps in your mind

[14:14] <Moonshadow> MM everyone

[14:14] <PonderWolf> Oh, getting personal now.

[14:14] <obli> i put in a qualifier

[14:15] <obli> i am trying to be as fair as possible

The place of politics in the spiritual quest

it is partly the nature of the project i am undertaking
and partly becuase it was election year
i have been concerned for a while now about the relationship between paganism and fascism
after a year of looking into it, my overall conclusion , is that paganism (like most fringe social phenomenom)  attracts alot of contrarians
and that most people who are using spirituality primarily to advance a political ideal eventually move away from any kind of structured spirituality, even ones as loosely structured as the various paganism's. If you are going to trumpet a religion when your main goals are political you'll eventually end up tending towards the one that will win you the most support

a political ideal, or any mundane ideal, for that matter
it's interesting because there were 3 main players (who wrote material) who pushed the pagan aspect of the order of woodcraft chivalry. ernest westlake  (the founder who wrote on theological aspects) victor neuberg (a poet / ex Crowley assossiate) and dion byngham (who edited the oragnisations magazine and was very vocal about the promotion of pagansim within the order)
i initially thought byngham was the most interesting because he was the loudest/ most proactive.
but reading his stuff, it's clear his concerns were guided by politics (a politics of radical individualism) to a large degree
his actual concern for the gods seems pretty tangental compared to his promotion of nietzsche and german youth movements
and general romanticism... though that also seems more of an aside to the other two
or a warm up
the gods are pretty front and centre in neuberg and westlakes writing
neubergs stuff reads entirely apolitical, and westlakes mostly relates to politics in discussing how the embrace of Dionysus might effect peoples general awareness



i am not familiar with either
anyway the point i was going to make was that byngham eventually gave up on paganism to  focus on promoting naturism


its no suprise... neubergs the only one who anyone might have heard of
but yeah... you just have to be weary in considering the insights of contrarians who joined the path you are studying as an act of rebellion
they can turn up interesting insights...
they can also muddy the waters pretty bad
so this year of distraction was probably worth it
learned some leasons about politics
made some techinal advances in the art making
* learned some leasons about the place of politics