on everything wrong with the current world order

[00:37] <rknol> faust
[00:37] <rknol> they can beat me with their signs
[00:37] <Faust> XD
[00:37] <rknol> but it won't change the fact that they will lose their jobs
[00:37] <Faust> I don't know anything about the strike actually
[00:38] <Faust> I have been more focused on the teaching strike.
[00:38] <rknol> apparently
[00:38] <Faust> and also avoiding news that angries up the blood
[00:38] <rknol> they want to fire around 2000 personell from the ticket offices
[00:38] <rknol> because everything is gonna be done by machines
[00:38] <rknol> it's UNAVOIDABLE this WILL happen some time
[00:38] <Faust> :(
[00:39] <Faust> How come it's unavoidable?
[00:39] <MrOpop> becuase of petty consumerist fucks
[00:39] <Faust> Like will the company SHUT DOWN if it doesn't happen?
[00:39] <MrOpop> marching to their own death
[00:39] <MrOpop> just wish they wern't dragging the rest of us with them
[00:39] <rknol> Faust: because having jobs just for the sake of having jobs is not a good way to do business
[00:39] <Faust> They should come back and smash up all the ticket booths.
[00:40] <Faust> But not everything is about GOOD BUSINESS when it comes to public services.
[00:40]  * Faust is up for wholesale nationalisation of all key services >:O
[00:40] <MrOpop> i can't wait untill the job of killing people is done by robots too... then the guys who can afford the robots can finally eliminate us all
[00:40] <rknol> well
[00:40] <rknol> if you bring it like that
[00:40] <MrOpop> but who cares
[00:40] <MrOpop> xbox
[00:40] <rknol> we should let the public decide
[00:40] <rknol> not the workers
[00:40] <Faust> No way.
[00:41] <Faust> I don't believe in referendums at all.
[00:41] <Faust> As far too many people vote based on the politics of envy and shit.
[00:41] <rknol> i don't think striking is a good way to prove a point though
[00:41] <Faust> Like it should be handled the traditional way when workers have grievances with their employers wholesale: by a strike, if all talks have failed.
[00:41] <rknol> if anything, it makes the public disgust the workers even more
[00:41] <MrOpop> oh no
[00:41] <Faust> I understand it sucks to be inconvenienced. Like I HATE postal strikes
[00:41] <MrOpop> who gives a fuck
[00:41] <Faust> as I do not get IMPORTANT MAIL
[00:41] <MrOpop> like the public has ever supported the workers
[00:42] <MrOpop> fuck the public
[00:42] <MrOpop> hope they all choke on it
[00:42] <Faust> Also: public opinion doesn't really, really matter when it comes to strikes.
[00:42] <Faust> As the public never tends to back strikers XD
[00:42] <MrOpop> the public doesn't back labour on any damn thing
[00:42] <Faust> tbh if I was going to lose my job and be replaced by a machine, I wouldn't give a fuck what the public thought, or how much damage I caused.
[00:42] <MrOpop> theres nothing to lose by striking
[00:43] <Faust> Like with the teacher's strike for example. If you have IT-sector problems with your boss ruben, you can go to work in another IT job.
[00:43] <Faust> Here we don't have that option in teaching XD
[00:43] <MrOpop> the public will happily see you laid off then call you parasitic scum and talk about how you should be put down
[00:43] <Faust> As conditions are the same across the board.
[00:43] <Faust> So it's like give up our careers which we've pumped years and training into and be bums, or STRIKE HARD.
[00:44] <Faust> (no, in actuality I do get your point regarding the machines, but I find it hypocritical for me to condemn one strike while being gung-ho for another)
[00:44] <Faust> (SOLIDARITY(

[00:48] <MrOpop> so Faust
[00:48] <MrOpop> on a scale of evitable to inevitable how evitable is fascism over there
[00:49] <Faust> Haha completely evitable. We had a chance for Fascism in the 30s obli.
[00:49] <Faust> When people were MOST up for it.
[00:49] <Faust> It was roundly rejected.
[00:49] <Faust> People here are already pretty right-wing, like so much so that fascism can't really gain a hold.
[00:49] <MrOpop> dreams are free Faust
[00:50] <rknol> Faust: that's my point exactly
[00:50] <rknol> socialist benefits are preventing the good teachers from excelling
[00:51] <MrOpop> i wonder how much of the work force has to be replaced by machines for anti-fa to decide fighting to protect neoliberalism isn't in their best intrests
[00:51] <Faust> <rknol> Faust: that's my point exactly
[00:51] <Faust> <rknol> socialist benefits are preventing the good teachers from excelling
[00:51] <Faust> XD dude, is that a wind-up?
[00:52] <MrOpop> its always a wind up
[00:52] <rknol> Faust: would you strive to be better at your job if you knew that you wouldn't benefit from it
[00:52] <MrOpop> just like glen beck
[00:52] <MrOpop> and bill o'riley
[00:52] <Faust> Yes.
[00:52] <Faust> As I have been for seven years.
[00:52] <Faust> As the majority of people I work with do.
[00:52] <Faust> Due to professionalism and ethics.
[00:52] <Faust> Currently we're being forced to strive to be better at our jobs for LESS BENEFITS.
[00:52] <MrOpop> a wind up till you are dying in the streets
[00:52] <rknol> maybe it's different in UK
[00:53] <rknol> in NL, all the teachers are just
[00:53] <Faust> And your point completely ignores teacher retention and recruitment.
[00:53] <rknol> not making any effort at all
[00:53] <Faust> Like my school cannot keep teachers
[00:53] <Faust> They keep quitting.
[00:53] <MrOpop> you're such a petty fuck rknol
[00:53] <Faust> Meaning we hire more and more unskilled teachers.
[00:53] <Faust> Likewise, teachers are leaving the profession in the UK in droves.
[00:53] <MrOpop> every developed country is raking in money hand over fucking fist compared to any time in history
[00:54] <Faust> Because what's the point of training for years, being a professional, putting in 60+ hour weeks etc, when you're earning less than people with no training at all AND basically having breakdowns?
[00:54] <MrOpop> and less and less of it is going to anything that keeps society functioning
[00:54] <Faust> There are like two teachers I know of at my school who really don't give a fuck and don't work hard, out of a staff of 100+
[00:55] <MrOpop> frankly seeing you are just going to get fucked makes you not give a fuck about working at all
[00:55] <Faust> A lot of them are incompetent, sure, but there's no other option as no one will work for us due to declining conditions.
[00:55] <Faust> Exactly obli.
[00:55] <Faust> Like if Gove's changes aren't stopped, no one will give a fuck at all as we'll have been completely betrayed.
[00:55] <Faust> Like I'll leave the profession completely.
[00:56] <MrOpop> this is why neoliberalism is a vacant ideology
[00:56]  * Faust already been offered a job which is 70% salary increase by a consultancy firm.
[00:56] <MrOpop> who is gonna fight for it
[00:56] <MrOpop> the rich better hope they get robots
[00:56] <MrOpop> otherwise neo mussolini
[00:56] <Faust> Like one of Gove's ideas was "Hey, totally change the teacher's pay agreement, so schools can pay teachers what they want!"
[00:57] <Faust> pretending like good teachers would be paid more.
[00:57] <Faust> In reality, good teachers get no increase, teachers not deemed "good" (and this is entirely subjective, based on head's decisions) get decreases.
[00:57] <Faust> I know teachers placed on capabilities who really didn't deserve it.
[00:58] <Faust> Fuck, my own father is currently on capabilities due to being too expensive for the school.
[00:58] <Faust> Because he: didn't mark the books during the period when both his parents died and he had a bit of a breakdown.
[00:58] <MrOpop> i don't understand how so many mongoloids can by into the idea that money is the only motivator
[00:58] <Faust> Because he costs £37k, and the school wants to hire a few NQTs at £21k instead, they're pushing him out.
[00:58] <MrOpop> like
[00:58] <MrOpop> just pure pig headed retards
[00:58] <Faust> obli, I get your PASSION but there's no need for terrible insults bro.
[00:59] <Faust> Like people have different motivating factors. That's why the necessity of striking etc exists.
[00:59] <MrOpop> if i thought it mattered
[00:59] <Faust> Because you often can't convince people to change their perspectives, so you use the tools you have available - withdrawing your labour, to show what it's like when you're not there.
[00:59] <MrOpop> shits just going to get far more atrocious from here on out
[01:00] <Faust> Nah man. Labour's going to win the next election here by a landslide.
[01:00] <Faust> There'll still be some lame bullshit, like TEACHER LICENCES etc, but our conditions should improve.
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[01:01] <MrOpop> one half of the neo liberal party succeeding the other half doesn't change shit unfortunatly
[01:01] <Faust> Yeah it does man. Conditions improved significantly last time under Labour.
[01:01] <Faust> Conditions declined under the Conservatives.
[01:02] <Faust> Don't get me wrong, Labour will still fuck me over in many other ways
[01:02] <MrOpop> if labour could hold power indefinably that might matter
[01:02] <Faust> But my job satisfaction will improve.
[01:02] <MrOpop> you think the jobs are coming back?
[01:03] <Faust> who knows
[01:04] <MrOpop> without a new ideology in government theres no coming back
[01:04] == ren_ [~ren@99-70-244-191.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 194 seconds]
[01:04] <Faust> obli let's not get PSYCHOTIC about it!
[01:04] <MrOpop> it's not even like it needs to be anything radical.. just kensyianism
[01:05] <Faust> Let's just FIGHT FOR WORKER's RIGHTS without smashing the whole system.
[01:06] <Faust> keynesian economics is usually employed by Labour.
[01:06] <MrOpop> raising taxes =/= smashing the whole system
[01:06] <MrOpop> dispite the neoliberal retoric
[01:06] <Faust> and I'm totally fine with tax raises.
[01:06] <Faust> Fuck, I'd be up for the mayor here's 10% increase in council tax, as he said it'd stop the need for any cuts.
[01:06] <Faust> But sadly people would rather save £7 a month and have no services.
[01:07] <MrOpop> i blame individualism
[01:07] <Faust> you commie
[01:07] <MrOpop> yeah communists are usually right
[01:08] <Faust> but obli we require the free market for advancement and innovation.
[01:08] <Faust> HARNESS IT with socialism, not DESTROY IT with communism.
[01:08] <Faust> THE THIRD WAY.
[01:08] <MrOpop> fascism?
[01:08] <Faust> No XDD
[01:09] <Faust> fascism is too national-based.
[01:09] <MrOpop> you can't be a a nationalist and a capitalist
[01:09] <Faust> GOOD.
[01:10]  * Faust supranationalism.
[01:10] <Faust> ODE TO JOY >:O
[01:10] <MrOpop> ode to fascism
[01:10] <MrOpop> seriously
[01:11] <MrOpop> the golden dawn got their boost becuase germany did everything in it's power to prevent any kind of socialist solution to greece's crisis
[01:11] <MrOpop> and if you can't blame capitalism you gotta find someone to blame
[01:11] <MrOpop> and if you can't blame capitalism you gotta find someone to blame
[01:13] <MrOpop> why do you think all this "illuminanti" bullshits been so popular lately?
[01:14] <MrOpop> if everything going horrificly wrong isn't the fault of the system it must be shadowy occult forces
[01:14] <MrOpop> not enough jesus
[01:15] <MrOpop> if we are capitalisming as hard as we can and it's just not working
[01:15] <MrOpop> if we just jesus harder then everything will come right
[01:16] <MrOpop> i hate living in interesting times
[01:16] <MrOpop> would rather live in the 90s
[01:16] <Faust> smash shit up.
[01:16] <Faust> Actually yeah, I'd rather live in the late 90s too.
[01:17] <Faust> Things were pretty good then. Well, except for the lack of rights and shit.
[01:17] <MrOpop> i'd rather live in mid 90s
[01:17] <Faust> But other than that, things WERE pretty sweet.
[01:17] <MrOpop> 93-97
[01:17] <MrOpop> enjoy while it lasts i guess
[01:18] <Faust> It was like 97-midnaughties were the goldentimes here.
[01:18] <MrOpop> we're living in petty times faust.. and the dominant ideology is the only thing that certainly isn't to blame
[01:20] <MrOpop> everything else must be punished for its decadent weakness
[01:20] <MrOpop> if we all become stoic ascetics then capitalism will reward us by working
[01:21] <MrOpop> then burn a few witches
[01:21] <MrOpop> then work out what the actual problem is
[01:21] <Faust> obli I'm having to really think about all of your sentences as I'm on a lot of painkillers and have been awake like an hour.
[01:21] <Faust> Like it is TOO MUCH for my brain currently.
[01:21] <MrOpop> no worries
[01:22] <MrOpop> this is what i'm going to nail to the door of the
[01:22] <MrOpop> internet?

The Philosophical Disenfranchisement of Art

Does what it says on the box
must be frustrating for philosophers... no matter how many words they expend trying to disenfranchise it, it remains a lurking threat, like a razorblade in a cake.
10:28
i think the canon is the problem, all the examples used are the same tried handful of movements
kind of feels like the american seizing of art in the 50s was a deeply distorting event... an illusion of progress

a major problem with the whole line of argument about "the end of art" is that it fails to account for movements like the futurists, who would be just as powerful today given the right historical circumstances, art as cultural articulation.
I'd argue that arts diffusion of energy in the world today is an aspect of where mass culture is at. during the modernist period where art was making bold pronouncements, there was a feeling that that the old (political) order had been entirely discredited (a process that began in the English speaking world with the English civil war) and what was to come was entirely up for grabs, and the primary drivers, those at the cutting edge of the social movements fighting to shape the world were (chiefly political) philosophers (especially populist philosophers publishing work for mass consumption and their patrons in the media), in this context the various modernist movements can be seen  as either propagandists articulating the various political philosophies, or as propagandists for a political philosophy relating to art (that art is actually this or that inscrutable thing as a proxy war for inarticulable radical political positions).

after ww2 the matter was considered settled... (and I personally believe the matter was settled in the world of political philosophy as the driver of mass culture as early as 1936 when the first real world effects of these warring political philosophies were made manifest in the Spanish civil war and Kristallnacht, or the camps had at least solidified to a point where their incompatibilities were obvious to everyone)

political philosophers ceased to be the drivers of mass culture and were replaced by consumerism and the movies (or the movies and consumerism), pop art was the reaction to this whereas abstract expressionism was the development of where art had been left sitting (as art)

by the end of the 60's the pivotal driver of mass culture had established it's self to be music, which had a far more individualist message than the political philosophies of the inter-war period, any danger it posed being to the individual participating and to the vestiges of social conservatism, but now the whole music genre as movement thing is starting to fall apart under new distribution methods that struggle to create genres with the robustness or penetration to create meaning.