"art is more important than life"

[20:06] <obli> cats

[20:06] <obli> art is powerful

[20:06] <cats> how

[20:07] <obli> Chaucer, Dante, and that Spanish chap who wrote don Quixote had a massive effect on language

[20:07] <obli> unifiying language

[20:07] <obli> for example

[20:08] <obli> the futurists basically caused fascism

[20:08] <obli> p powerful

[20:08] <obli> just don't use that power to cause fascism

[20:08] <obli> and you are set

[20:09] <cats> but cant you find some sort of significant cataclysmic event occuring as the result of anything

[20:09] <obli> um

[20:09] <obli> futurism man... the link is pretty inescapible

[20:09] <cats> yea but wouldnt the fact that you have to look for some farfetched historic event to validate the millions of people who do art today act as proof that its in fact not significant

[20:10] <obli> 1909 is hardly farfetched

[20:10] <obli> just becuase most artists have more modest goals

[20:10] <obli> or no goals

[20:10] <obli> *farflung

[20:10] <obli> doesn't invalidate the power of art

[20:10] <obli> just calls for artists to be more ambitious

[20:11] <cats> yes but what youre saying can be said about anything. its the frequent occurance of significance that proves the inherent significance of something

[20:11] <cats> which cant be said about art

[20:11] <cats> and even if what youre saying is true, it doesnt mean that futurism caused fascism.

[20:12] <cats> as much as futurism was a vessel for an idea.

[20:12] <cats> that existed outside the realm of art

[20:12] <obli> thats what art is man

[20:12] <cats> its like saying that being angry causes excellence just because steve jobs yelled at his employees

[20:12] <obli> the expression of ideas

[20:12] <obli> all art is propaganda

[20:12] == Ramci [~Rami@91.184.212.60] has joined #saltw

[20:13] == Ramci [~Rami@91.184.212.60] has left #saltw []

[20:13] <obli> anyway anger is a poor example for you arguement

[20:13] <obli> anger causes all kinds of shit

[20:14] <cats> so does art. it doesnt mean that anger itself causes excellence

[20:14] <cats> nor does it mean that art caused fascism

[20:14] <cats> it just carried the message

[20:14] <obli> did i say art causes fascism

[20:14] <obli> i said futurism caused fascism

[20:14] <obli> futurism was a kind of art

[20:14] <obli> not all art

[20:14] <cats> yes but you used it as an example of the significance of art, so im saying that your example is invalid

[20:15] <cats> because it doesnt prove the significance of art

[20:15] <obli> you can assert that its invalid'

[20:15] <Eltee> does significance need to be proven

[20:15] <cats> i can, because its illogical

[20:15] <obli> but history disagrees

[20:15] <obli> becuase fascism happened

[20:15] <obli> :P

[20:15] <cats> as for "art is expression", youre just talking about art as a concept instead of art as a product. the concept of art needs to exist, true, but thats just because something in the world needs to represent the very idea of untangibleness

[20:15] <cats> if art didnt exist, all we'd have is rules

[20:15] <cats> just like how if the union didnt exist, we'd be slaves

[20:16] <obli> the union?

[20:16] <obli> oh

[20:16] <cats> yes, the workers union

[20:16] <obli> anwyay

[20:16] <obli> i talked about art as a product

[20:16] <obli> propaganda is art as a product

[20:17] <cats> It's just a message.

[20:17] <cats> wrapped in art

[20:17] <cats> It's like saying that the wrapping on a christmas present is what makes receiving gifts significant

[20:18] <obli> do you argue this passionately against the existence of writers :P

[20:18] <obli> maybe this hair spliting will be a winning arguement when we are all telepathic

[20:18] <obli> untill that day

[20:19] <cats> I'm not splitting hairs, but there are a lot of people who attribute importance to art in ways that should only be done to certain forms of art, and that just because art needs to exist as a mere concept, the products that artists create must be just as important.

[20:20] <cats> Like artists pissing on a canvas and defending it under the idea that if art didn't exist, we'd have no free will.

[20:20] <cats> Or freedom rather.

[20:20] <obli> yeah cats

[20:20] <cats> But they're not making anything significant.

[20:20] <obli> its propaganda

[20:20] <obli> just vapid propaganda

[20:21] <obli> by people with nothing to say

[20:21] <cats> It's self-delusion.

[20:21] <cats> Because they're preaching to the choir

[20:21] <cats> propaganda is intended for non-believers

[20:21] <cats> but nobody listens to these people

[20:21] <obli> catering to the self selected few who care about art

[20:21] <obli> the tastemakers

[20:21] <cats> yes

[20:22] <cats> but those are the only ones talking about the significance of art

[20:22] <obli> yeah

[20:22] <cats> and theyre the most visible individuals within all art communities

[20:22] <cats> they are the face of art

[20:22] <obli> but art about art is dull wankery

[20:22] <obli> of course they are

[20:22] <obli> becuase what unites an "art community"

[20:22] <obli> art

[20:23] <cats> well, couldnt artists who arent self-delusional wankers be as vocal about art

[20:23] <cats> and its importance

[20:23] <cats> since they'd actually produce stuff that people like

[20:24] <cats> you know what you gotta do obli

[20:25] <cats> you gotta be the new face of art

[20:28] <obli> sorry

[20:28] <obli> got distracted by an irl debate

[20:28] <obli> but yeah

[20:28] <obli> art communities are united by art

[20:28] <obli> so they produce incestious art about art

[20:28] <obli> and its boring as shit

[20:29] == eer [~androirc@5353852C.cm-6-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

[20:29] == eer [~androirc@5353852C.cm-6-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #saltw

[20:29] <obli> like theres a definate canon at play

[20:29] <obli> and the artists included in it are artists who effected art

[20:30] <obli> which sort of created a great men theory in art

[20:30] <obli> where to be an important artist you need to be making art thats going to change art

[20:31] <obli> which i think creates all kind of unknowable deformities in the output of the tallented

[20:32] <obli> becuase they are the ones most likely to succeed in ataining these perverse goals

[20:32] <cats> yes but the whitenoise output from the art community is always that what they do is more important than life

[20:32] <cats> which cant be said about anything else

[20:32] <cats> like a collective backpat

[20:33] <cats> :D

[20:33] <obli> i take it you arn't an existentialist cats

[20:33] <cats> what is that

[20:33] <obli> if you're going to be an artist you need to decide at some point art is more important than life

[20:33] <cats> why

[20:34] <obli> becuase why else would you endure being spat on by society?

[20:34] <obli> and a ton of social uncertainty

[20:34] <cats> maybe society wouldnt spit on you if you didnt constantly claim that what youre doing is more important than anything they do

[20:34] <cats> and acted like it

[20:34] <cats> isnt that an easier solution

[20:35] <obli> seems like it would require a ton of faith on the part of the art community

[20:35] <obli> becuase i doubt society would stop spitting on artists

[20:36] <cats> why would they spit on artists

[20:36] <obli> capitalism

[20:36] <obli> human life has no purpose but to amass much coins

[20:37] <obli> if you art doing art that isn't amassing coins

[20:37] <obli> then you are on the level of a vagrant

[20:42] <cats> what about human appreciation for entertaining things

[20:42] <cats> and human needs that are more important than money

[20:43] <obli> well thats an arguement against capitalism

[20:43] <obli> which i will join you in

[20:43] <cats> So

[20:44] <cats> since humans inherently have needs that are stronger than money

[20:44] <cats> then doesnt that mean society does not spit on artists

[20:46] == skauert [~skauert@host109-151-39-236.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #saltw

[20:46] <obli> basicly the way society is structured is broken and unspoken class assumptions based on the kind of work and number of hours worked (as well as remuneration) mean that if you are poor and an artist you need a huge amount of drive so this whole talking point about artists thinking "art is more important than life" has aspects of being a motivational fiction to survive as an artist in the capitalist structure

[20:49] <obli> basically art is necessarily to make the slog of existence worth while... it produces the milestone we can look back on and say all the struggle was worth it because it produced these beautiful things

[20:50] <cats> but the art community isnt the only field where people struggle surviving because they produce stuff that nobody wants

[20:50] <obli> milestones

[20:50] <cats> so why is it the only community that has such an arrogant motivational method

[20:50] == Eltee [~alexei@modemcable121.135-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: buy a reptile doll]

[20:50] <cats> what about tech people who starve because theyre more interested in humoring themselves than doing something useful that people value

[20:52] <obli> because its a necessary part of life ... and a bunch of worn out slaves don't produce art as refined as those who spend signifigant ammounts of time developing their techniques and methods

[20:52] <cats> i dont think artists do work that is more intricate than uber programming nerds who spend years doing some stupid and unnecessary project

[20:53] <cats> the difference is just that they dont need to rely on self-aggrandizing pseudo-philosophies

[20:53] <cats> so

[20:53] <cats> why is that

[20:58] <leafo> http://25.media.tumblr.com/68e02bd11e5e01a02c47c9c40b703c09/tumblr_ml3jwruA031qf5do9o1_400.gif

[20:59] <obli> i dunno cats

[20:59] <rknol> thats a good pic leafo

[20:59] <obli> have you made an intricate super uncessicarry programing project?

[20:59] <obli> or do you just do shit you get paid for?

[21:00] <cats> obli I haven't

[21:00] <cats> but I have of course met or seen individuals who are not artists and who have done things that are just as complex or far exceeds the coplexity of what artists do

[21:01] == skauert [~skauert@host109-151-39-236.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 186 seconds]

[21:01] <obli> becuase i suspect for a significant proportion of people  who make intricate super unnecessary programming projects beleive these projects are their lifes work...

[21:01] <obli> say

[21:01] <obli> templeOS

[21:01] <obli> i'd call that art

[21:01] <obli> outsider art

[21:01] <obli> good arts

[21:01] <obli> templeOS

[21:02] <cats> they dont act like it. they act more like its something fun they do to pass time

[21:02] <cats> temple os looks cool

[21:02] <obli> i'd have to be aquainted with there projects to make a judgement man

[21:02] <obli> their

[21:03] <cats> well, surely you have observed non-artists in your life who are for one reason or another fascinated with someting

[21:03] <cats> enough to devode a lot of time to it

[21:03] <cats> devote*

[21:09] <obli> yeah

[21:09] <obli> but i aslo have observed people with no creative drive or intellectual curiousity

[21:09] <obli> who drink alot

[21:10] <obli> or gossip

[21:10] <obli> or watch sport

[21:10] <obli> or other programming

[21:11] <cats> are you saying that they are medicating their undiscovered inherent human need for creative expression

[21:11] <obli> thats one view cats

[21:12] <obli> maybe they are just empty vessels

[21:13] <cats> what if people are very different because we're all programmed by both arbitrary and decided factors as toddlers which in turn dictates what triggers our reward centers

[21:13] <cats> which effectively means that only some people will enjoy creative expression while others enjoy other things

[21:13] <cats> and that everybody react differently to everything

[21:13] <cats> including stuff they like

[21:13] <obli> maybe

[21:13] <cats> isnt that more likely

[21:13] <obli> but drinking and gossiping are their own encoragement

[21:14] <cats> yes but maybe theres no use thinking about it because human behavior is so arbitrary that even if you managed to "straighten out" this one specific human behavior so that people would realize that they dont do it by choice, there would still be millions of other behaviors that one would have to study and try to figure out if its natural enough

[21:14] <obli> people shitting on young artists probably isn't very helpful

[21:14] <cats> which in turns means that there is no use analyzing one certain human behavior

[21:15] <obli> i'm committed now

[21:15] <obli> people can shit on me eternally.. too late.. shits decided

[21:15] <cats> well

[21:15] <cats> what if the world isnt as capitalistic as you think

[21:15] <obli> i suspect its more capitalistic than i think

[21:15] <obli> i am an optomist

---

[21:17] <cats> What if just some of it is capitalistic, and some of it isn't, and some of it is creative, and that every argument ever is just two such groups in a conflicting tug of war, between which the middle ground exists that define our society

[21:17] <cats> and that all of it is based on natural human behavior

[21:17] <cats> and that there are so many tug of wars going on that it all comes together naturally

[21:17] <cats> because it cannot be controlled

[21:18] <cats> what if we are currently living in a balance that was defined long ago by natural selection

[21:18] <cats> and that nothing is ever going to change because it already wouldve if that was the case