the featureless man question

#01[22:23] <supermarx> i've come up with a moral question that doesn't seem to have any imediate logical answer

[22:23] <Faust> educate me!

[22:23] <Faust> What is this question

#01[22:23] <supermarx> i call it the featureless man question

#01[22:23] <supermarx> If you are presented with a man of no great virtues or vices, of plain and unoffensive appearance, who has never done anything affecting you at all and who had no worldly connection, who if you were to kill them, no one would ever know, no natural or supernatural entity would know, it could be erased from your memory, or consciousness or both if you wished it, and if you spared him he would die instantly an painlessly a split second after you you chose to spare him leaving no trace, would you kill him?

[22:24] <ruben> morally, would it be wrong to let him die? to clear yourself of any murderous guilt?

[22:25] <Faust> :o? Wait, let me read that again

#06[22:25] * Faust tries to understand

[22:25] <ruben> if you let him be and nobody saw you

[22:25] <ruben> "it never happened"

[22:25] <ruben> he would have died of natural causes

[22:25] <Faust> So wait, he dies anyway?

[22:25] <ruben> but if you would have killed him

[22:25] <ruben> and someone found him

#01[22:25] <supermarx> yes

[22:25] <ruben> there would have been a "murder"

[22:25] <Faust> Do you know he's going to die if you #don't# kill him?

#01[22:25] <supermarx> yes

#01[22:26] <supermarx> would you kill him?

[22:26] <Faust> Man, I guess it depends on the person. I wouldn't kill him as then I'd be the one DOING the killing, rather than #FATHER TIME# or whatever.

[22:26] <Faust> Like I sometimes toy with the fantasy of murdering people, but I'm totally not the kind of guy who could straight up kill someone.

#01[22:26] <supermarx> And is there any logical reason not to pick the other option?

[22:27] <Faust> Not unless you consider omission to be a lesser sin than active murder.

#03[22:27] * iDorito_ (~iDorito@c-5eeaaa25-74736162.cust.telenor.se) has joined #saltw

[22:28] <Faust> Like BIBLICALLY Thou Shalt Not Kill prohibits it and shit, but if you don't follow like MOSESSPECIALLAW then there's no logical reason, unless you'd just feel like you were playing an active part in it.

[22:28] <Faust> I don't know

#01[22:28] <supermarx> you can do nothing to save him

#01[22:28] <supermarx> i think most people would not kill him

#01[22:28] <supermarx> would you kill him if offered a million dollars?

#01[22:28] <supermarx> same situation

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#01[22:29] <supermarx> million dollars... you can remember the act and erase the guilt... erase the memory... erase all memory of it but the memory you have a million dollars

#01[22:29] <supermarx> would you kill him?

#01[22:31] <supermarx> Faust

[22:31] <Faust> Wait

[22:31] <Faust> If offered a million dollars?

#01[22:31] <supermarx> yes

[22:31] <Faust> There is very little I wouldn't do for a million dollars

[22:32] <Faust> So possibly in that instance.

#01[22:32] <supermarx> so you'd kill the featureless man

#01[22:32] <supermarx> i wouldn't

[22:32] <Faust> Considering all the other faucets (about him dying anyway!)

#01[22:32] <supermarx> i don't think most people would

[22:32] <Faust> I agree

[22:32] <Faust> I think most people have the idea that killing is wrong, and killing for money doesn't make it any better. But a million is a fucking lot.

#01[22:33] <supermarx> so if most people wouldn't kill him though theres no logical reason not to and a million logical reasons to do so

#01[22:33] <supermarx> what does that mean?

#01[22:33] <supermarx> either humans have a strong evolutionary instinct to not kill other humans... or free will exists

#01[22:34] <supermarx> if its an evoltionary instinct... whats the final outcome of this instinct? increases fun? aids in our search for the truth?

[22:36] <geodude> that's a false dichotomy

#01[22:37] <supermarx> maybe

#01[22:37] <supermarx> please explain how

#01[22:38] <supermarx> other than i havn't proved it... i admit at this point its wild speculation

#01[22:38] <supermarx> but not killing people has some effect and by our actions of not killing we increase this effect

[22:38] <Faust> No I hear you hehe.

[22:38] <geodude> in the sense that it isn't just a choice between absolute free will or pure instinct

[22:38] <geodude> but possibly i misunderstood your point

#01[22:39] <supermarx> yeah geodude but

#01[22:39] <supermarx> theres no evidence free will exists

#01[22:39] <supermarx> other than if theres no logical reason most people would spare him

[22:39] <Faust> I think the point he's making is that humans specifically attach meaning to like AVOIDING MURDER, without anything you can define logically (aside from like Kant's categorical imperative or whatever)

#01[22:39] <supermarx> even for a million bucks

[22:39] <Faust> If we're onto FREE WILL then that's a topic that makes my head hurt.

#01[22:41] <supermarx> i think you can attack meaning if you look at the consiquences

#01[22:41] <supermarx> maybe

#01[22:41] <supermarx> attach

#01[22:41] <supermarx> :P

[22:42] <geodude> that's true

#01[22:42] <supermarx> if we are pursuing truth what are the consiquences

[22:43] <geodude> from a philosophical standpoint it's difficult to separate what is an act of free will and what is an act of instinct, 'nature'

#01[22:43] <supermarx> i suspect since the universe is imperfect we are protected from finding perfect truth... but what would be the consiquence if we had it

[22:43] <geodude> because you can question whether an individual 'choice' is actually motivated by instinct

[22:43] <geodude> and then you have to sit down and have a hot drink

#01[22:43] <supermarx> if we chanced on it by luck

#01[22:44] <supermarx> geodude

#01[22:44] <supermarx> it seems logical it is

#01[22:44] <supermarx> but potentially thats even scaryer

#01[22:45] <supermarx> becuase where does the instinct lead

#01[22:46] <supermarx> if we are hunting all possible truth... does that mean if we achived our goal we would all think the same

#01[22:47] <supermarx> we'd all have the exact same truth

[22:48] <geodude> that is a scary prospect

#01[22:48] <supermarx> yep

[22:48] <geodude> but i think a real comfort in that regard is human capacity to act illogically

#01[22:48] <supermarx> so what does that mean though

#01[22:48] <supermarx> if we act illogiclly

#01[22:48] <supermarx> leaving the man alive could increase illogic

#01[22:48] <supermarx> what gain is there from illogic?

#01[22:49] <supermarx> except maybe fun?

#01[22:49] <supermarx> does that make fun the end effect of logically deciding to not kill the featureless man

#01[22:49] <supermarx> or at least the natural instinct of not killing him

#01[22:50] <supermarx> i should say

#01[22:50] <supermarx> if thats the case

#01[22:50] <supermarx> then human life is naturally fun all external influences discounted

#01[22:50] <supermarx> it explains alot

#01[22:51] <supermarx> so i'm open to the possiblity

#01[22:51] <supermarx> Faust

[22:51] <geodude> now that is a very comforting thought

#01[22:51] <supermarx> you still about

[22:51] <geodude> an inherent fun to human existance

[22:51] <geodude> i'd like to subscribe to that please

#01[22:52] <supermarx> heh ... it could be logicly disproven.. potentially...

#01[22:52] <supermarx> i'm just saying it seems like a logical possiblity

#01[22:52] <supermarx> based on the info i have

#01[22:53] <supermarx> maybe the universe is entirely indiffrent to us and they are schrodingers possibilities

#01[22:53] <supermarx> truth or fun

#01[22:53] <supermarx> up to us

#01[22:54] <supermarx> i think the quest for knowledge fits into the quest for fun logicly... and vica versa...

#01[22:55] <supermarx> science digs up new metaphors ... fun satisfying metaphors that expand our minds

#01[22:58] <supermarx> fun and creativity gives us new metaphors that potentially help us understand the world... and gives us the drive to keep existing

#01[22:58] <supermarx> though maybe it doesn't lead us to the truth

#01[22:58] <supermarx> just confuses and amazes us

#01[22:58] <supermarx> thats a possiblity

#01[22:59] <supermarx> and if that the case then human life is once you strip away bad luck about fun

#01[23:00] <supermarx> or maybe killing the featureless man is morally neutral... and is a good candidate for the existance of free will

#01[23:00] <supermarx> like

#01[23:00] <supermarx> possible evidence

#01[23:00] <supermarx> for the existance of freewill

#01[23:00] <supermarx> maybe

#01[23:02] <supermarx> even if more voices just means more confusion in that case theres no good reason not to assume that its perfectly valid to choose to enjoy the confusion

#01[23:03] <supermarx> in which case free will is weather we view the world as funny or tragic

a word doc with further debate and clarification of the meaning and purpose of the featureless man question